To not sell a potentially £million plus property for £200,000?

[InheritanceDilema]

Got a really sticky situation and need some advice.

FIL has died and Dh and BIL have inherited his house and small holding. We are not local and do not wish to live there. It's BILs dream to live there and he wants to buy us out and will happily pay us half of the £400,000 valuation of the small holding inc the house.

There are eight acres of land and I genuinely believe that planning permission could be got. The fields are in the middle of a village, so surrounded by built up areas/houses on all sides. Obviously if planning permission was gained the value of the land would be a lot more.

Bil has no interest in planning permission or making any money. He wants to live in his childhood home surrounded by goats, chickens and gooseberry bushes living a River Cottage dream. Dh doesn't want to rock the boat and doesn't know what to do.

I know if we did sell it we could put a thing on the sale saying if BIL did in the future get planning permission we would be entitled to more money. But I know BIL wouldn't ever seek planning permission. He won't even consider only having some of the land and planning permission for the rest of it. He wants a couple of ponies and says he needs all the land. I don't want to kiss goodbye to a considerable amount of money just to keep the peace.....we're not that well off. BIL owns 4 houses and already has a fantastic pension as well as rental income and his current house is worth half a million. We're in a terrace with no other houses and while £200,000 is a lot of money i don't think it's fair that BIL expects us to let him have his own way.

Don't be so ridiculous, sex has nothing to do with it.

The fact is; IF dh decides he's comfortable with BIL's suggestion then the OP can't or at least shouldn't do anything about it, because it's not her inheritance. It's her husband's.

And, can't believe this needs pointing out but; if the roles were reversed and this was a man posting, I would say the same thing.

Fine if spouse is uncomfortable and looking for alternatives, not fine if spouse is ok with it. It really is that simple.

It's not possible to apply for planning on property that is going thru' probate without all parties permission.

OP, I know you may be aware of this, but just in case -
You probably need the property 'Valued' not 'Market appraised'. If an estate agent looks round my house and says 'I could sell this house for £200,000,' he's given me a market appraisal. If he writes to me showing all the proper details including evidence (evidence being key) showing that in his professional opinion my house is worth £200,000, then he has valued it. Some people do both jobs, some only do one, so I wouldn't assume which one your BIL has got done.
Amounts given to be used in a negotiation do not have to be from 'valuations'.
'Appraisals' can be done at low or no cost. Valuations are paid for, but like any service you could go to three agents and ask for a quote to complete a full valuation.

Missed your post girlinacoma totally agree with this.

As per point above - yes both parties would need to seek planing permission but equally both need to agree to sell.

The best approach for the DH right now is not to agree to anything until he's has a proper impartial validation done (presuming planning consent and without) and sought advice from the local planning authority on if planning permission is likely to be granted.

Land is worse than money for bringing out the worst in people. Any sort of inheritance just adds fuel to the fire. Some people are capable of calmly and sensibly reaching an agreement and some are not. This is what lawyers and/or mediation services are for. They can help to clear away all the baggage ("you were always the favourite, I want more now because he gave you xyz" etc). If mediation fails then the lawyers can fight your corner and you don't have to get so mired in the spite and recriminations.
If the land is agricultural, planning permission may not be obtainable for anything other than agricultural buildings, but it does seem worth enquiring at least about outline permission.
To be honest, at first I did think this whole thread was a bit grabby and callous, purely because of my own experiences of my BILs trying to force my DH to sell the house and farm after their mother died, so they could get "their" shares. They didn't know that the farm had been his for years, and didn't care that he built the house himself. They didn't even seem to care that their mother was dead, just about the cash.
However, when I thought about how I would feel now if we were in a similar situation, I realised that I'd fight too. My husband is always keen for everyone to get on together and not to upset his siblings, and as a result they have frequently taken advantage of him. It really isn't always about the money, it's about not feeling that you've been conned by someone who should want to be fair to you.

Get planning permission and then get it revalued? Then he can pay you had of that if he wants to buy you out.

THIS

There ought to be a "like" button on here. That would save having to quote and unquote persistently.

Some of these responses have been deeply sexist. 'Can't you just leave it to the men to sort out?' 'Can't you just leave it to the men to sort out?'

If this was in reference to my post, it's not a men/ women thing, more that I think the siblings (i.e. the people that are actually the beneficiaries of the will) should have the face to face conversation/ discussions as ultimately it's their decision. I'd say the same if it were two women, or a man or a woman. That's not to say they can't take advice from people close to them, but I know I'd get a lot further with my sister if I said "Look, dsis, I know you want this house but I'm feeling a bit ripped off at that valuation " rather than DH saying it or me saying "DH and I feel....."

I also want to high five girlinacoma

Look, get three valuations, pick the middle one, and go from there. OP has said that she and her DH don't want to live there - so why would they be dicks about the ownership? And I say this as someone to whom £200k would be a life-changing amount of money and as someone whose SIL is a gold-digger. Fortunately, I have a very sensible brother who understands that husband and wife is one kind of relationship, but siblings is different, and sometimes, depending on the topic, one kind of relationship trumps the other.

It's nobody's money except OP's FIL: inheritance isn't a right, no matter what MN will tell you. He won't want his DC falling out over it (which is what will happen if various convoluted permutations of covenant etc are imposed on it) and the idea of handing the money down to the next generation? Many of the people twittering on about this are the same ones who told a different OP she clearly needed to sell the house that had been in her family for over 800 years as she obviously couldn't afford to live there

Wills bring out the worst in people, they really do.

Wow. The OP has had a real pasting for making a perfectly sensible enquiry about financial matters! I agree (sadly and reluctantly) with the person who felt that this would probably not happen on a male-dominated board.

And yes, of course it's her business - she is the wife, not some random woman he's been dating. Their finances are entwined, legally.

OP - take the informed advice on here from people who've taken the time to post about your next sensible, practical steps. Good luck with whatever you and he decide to do.

Oh - and don't assume, as PP have said, that if it's a small-holding, planning permission will be easy or even possible: my DP have a small-holding, and would dearly like (for financial reasons) to get planning permission for two agricultural buildings, both of which are well away from the (listed) house and gardens. The best they can do is to get permission to replace the buildings with improved versions of what are there currently - even permission for showers in one has been refused (handy to have an outside shower if you've been dealing with slurry etc), as has a storied hay barn: in case those could become springboards down the line for domestic buildings.

It is slightly different, in that their property, whilst in an area of high housing demand, is in an AONB and is greenbelt: but just because you have empty land, it's far from a given that development will be possible.

If I were BIL, and I honestly really didn't want to screw the OPs DH out of his fair share - then I would be more than happy to put a restrictive convent/ claw back mechanism in place on the sale. So that if, in the future, I did apply for planning permission and sell the land (or my own children did after my death) then the OP's DH would benefit from 50% the PP uplift.

By not even considering 50/50 ownership, or a claw back clause.... BIL is proving himself to be in it for himself.

I'd encourage DH to see a solicitor first and foremost, rather than the planners. And they can advise him on what his options are.
Just making a planning application is likely to cost hundreds if not thousands of pounds.
But beyond that I'd stay out of it. DH fell out with his stepbrother over a will, when stepbrother's girlfriend took over and can't imagine they'll ever speak again.
And your DH might also resent your suggestions for development of the land if it would go against his parents' wishes. It's an emotive subject and I remember being really pissed off at my DH when he kept suggesting that we build a house on my parents' large plot on the middle of a village and I eventually told him he was sounding like a gold digger.
Ten years later we've done it, but only because my Dad decided if we didn't do it now someone else would in the future. If he'd been against it I would have felt like I'd betrayed him.

It's understandable that the OP wants to see fair play and not stand by and watch her DH get ripped off by his brother, but it's her DH's inheritance not hers and ultimately, what happens to it is not her decision to make.

If her DH wanted to hand the whole thing over to his brother she would have to accept that.

I suspect that's why some posters are saying she's grabby, because it's not her money.

However, it would seem very sensible for her to encourage her DH to get all the legal advice they can afford to make sure his interests are protected.

This doesn't make OP greedy or grabby. Why should BIL walk away with the lion's share of what should be an equal division, even if it's 10 years down the line when and if it's sold.

Something similar happened with my exh and his brother when their parents died. My then DH didn't get a penny from their house that sold for nearly a million - BIL was single and house was left to him. We didn't need the money, thankfully, but it did seem unfair to me that given all the financial help exh had given them, he didn't get a penny.

I agree whois. I don't think the claw back clause has been put to him yet but that is definitely the acid test.

Why is the PP situation different in probate - i.e. requiring permission of all parties - when you can apply for PP without even knowing who the owners are so long as you publish the correct notice? I had a look at a few pages and can't see anything specifically relating to probate - just curious as it seems odd and like it would be very difficult to manage especially for larger developments where the site might encompass land/property owned by several different people.

Netmums do not know the full circumstances which may be why you are getting some negative remarks, when it may just be that you are trying to establish the best financial inheritance for your children etc.

I think girlinacoma's point is rubbish, actually. The OP has come on here and posted asking for advice, and giving information on feelings and family background. Of course had she gone to a solicitor the advice would have been straight and legal and without opinion on who is right/wrong/greedy.

It's also nothing to do with the OP being a man or a woman. I think that a sibling relationship can be precarious, and after the death of parents it needs nurturing. A fall out over money etc can lead to a family never speaking again. I've witnessed it countless times. Dh has never seen his cousins on his df's side as mil thought her sil pulled a fast one over an inheritance and forbade fil from seeing his family again.

Those saying finances are entwined once you are married - well, yes, but your feelings about your family aren't entwined. Obviously you have a history and feeling for your family that your spouse does not share. The spouse may well be right, and can see that you're being too nice or swindled, but nevertheless I think a spouse - man or woman - needs to exercise diplomacy and understanding in a situation like this.

It's such a very British thing isn't it, all this horror of appearing 'grabby' around money.

We're talking about potentially life changing amounts of money for the OP and her DH, not a couple of hundred bloody quid.

BIL sounds as if he's set for life due to the long term benefits arising from being the one who ended up taking ownership of the bricks and mortar last time this situation came about. He's about to do it again. I imaging he's laughing all the way to the bank.

Agree with YellowTulips above.

Get another valuation, then decide what the buy out value will be. If it's more than BIL has suggested, well, he'll just have to pay more, won't he? I wouldn't trust him, given his past form. And why do his needs/wants trump those of your DH? Yes, it might cause a fall out if BIL doesn't get his way. Equally, surely it will cause a fall out if your DH gets royally screwed by his own DB!

Who is handling probate here? Is there a solicitor involved? Presumably the estate can't be finalized until this is all sorted anyway? It's all very well people saying don't fall out over money, but why shouldn't the OP and her DH be keen to protect their own interests, as it seems BIL is only too happy to do?

My brother is probably the only person I would need my DP support, advice and even interference. I would and have conceded to his demands and he knows and uses this. He would turn things around that I was unreasonable for not excepting half a cake having never seen the whole cake. Older sibling syndrome of him being an adult and me still being now and always a child. My parents died with nothing (I paid their funeral insurance plans) he still managed to cause a stink.

No because that isn't in your best interests just as it isn't in bils case. However the opposite is true for ops DH

You misjudge my stance. I would be more than happy to do so if such an increase in value was not only possible due to my own financial input and say for example my sister hadn't spent the last 15+ years enjoying her financial benefit from the easy sale without the financial responsibility for improving a pile of bricks that she then intended on making more money from.

If say I had genuinely just sat on it without up keeping and financial output or my own hard work increasing it then I would be more than happy to and would consider it to be my duty to do so.

I wouldn't allow my sister to make money from me and I wouldn't allow myself to make miney from her, disadvantaging siblings is not a nice thing to do

Fair enough sock. Sorry I misunderstood. But equally op isn't bu for not wanting her DH to be disadvantaged. Bil doesn't sound as honourable as you. Remember he had no qualms about disadvantaging DH over the last house.

Mmmm sounds just like my brother when he offered to buy me out. Wellll he offered to give me £50k less than market value because apparently offering market value would have been a risk even though he intended to keep renting the house out as it was already rented out at the time. In retort I offered him the same - it didn't go down well. Needless to say I did not sell to my brother and I would not sell to your BIL. Brother and I continue to rent it out. We recently took a joint mortgage on the house - only 50% of the value (25% of the value each).
If neither party can agree, I would rent out the property. Alternatively and better, offer to buy your bil out for £200k and rent out the house yourselves. So how do you buy him out? Simple. Get an interest only buy to let mortgage on it, which will complete the day the purchase goes through. And get that 20k back as well if you can... But please only do this if you have enough money to cover 6 months of mortgage payments.
To give you an idea, a farm house although nicer will probably fetch a similar price to a similar sized house on a nice estate. Larger houses take more time to find tenants then smaller houses but it is likely tenants will stay longer.
BIL sounds dodgy. My brother wants to know all of my finances. He used to have a spreadsheet on me and knew my exact net worth. He tries to get information on me these days but I'm much wiser these days. No op you don't sound money grabbing.
In any case, please offer to buy him out for 200k and let us know the reaction!!
If you don't want to do this, please get red book value and a covenant on the land for you and your descendants for as long as is possible - in perpetuity if possible. Regarding planning, if you are thinking about the potential of building houses on the land, you will not see change from 20k maybe even 50k depending on the work you have to do to get it. Generally if land is desirable, building companies such as Taylor Wimpey will buy the land or give you some money for an option (get first refusal) to buy the land for say the next 20 years. Getting an option isn't necessarily a great idea because there are big admin/solicitor/conveyancing fees and potentially the money you are offered may only these with no money to spare.

I'd take the £200, 000 under the condition that if the land ever gets sold off, I'd be entitled to some more money later. If BIL is a nice decent chap, he won't mind, he will want fairness and a continued good relationship with his brother.

I would love a nice big fat cheque for £200,000 right now!