AIBU - Mother hoarding money

[rubberdubber1970]

Ok here's the scene
My father spent half his life moving money from account to account to get the best interest rate, he invested heavily in stocks and shares and mostly made money.
Money became his god, he would never spend, food was always cheap cuts, never any heating on in the house, bath was only allowed to be filled half way, no holidays, wore the same clothes week in week out etc etc

My mum always a housewife used to complain about his meaness.
My father died 5 years ago leaving a tidy sum (about £350,000 in cash) and the house
My mum is 75 and not in the best of health, I have moved her to a place near me so I can help her out.

My brother has rheumatoid arthritis and struggles to work every day, but has to work to pay his mortgage.
I have chronic tendinitis in both arms (yes it hurts to type) but I run my own business so can't stop as I also have a mortgage to pay and don't get sick pay
I have spent about £5000 on acupuncture, therapists, physio to try and cure it

My brother has no children (only grown up step children) I have a daughter and will not be having anymore.

My mother in law (aged 93) is in a care home at £730 per week, she had £63,000 now most of it's gone for her care home fees.

My mother has turned into my father, she struggles to walk, but won't get a taxi, she won't turn the heating on, won't phone my brother because he has a mobile phone so costs more, even when I bought her some special offer wine she queried the price that I said she owed me.

All the while she sits complaining about the rate of interest she is getting from the bank - Forgot to mention she has two private pensions and a full old age pension - she has an income of £1000 per month and out goings of £600

For the last 5 years I have been telling her to spend her money, I have been brutal telling her that if she goes into a care home that they will take it. I've explained about inheritance tax and how her estate is above it. My father spending his life avoiding tax, she seems happy to give it to the system.

I have begged saying if you don't want to give it to me or my brother, or her only grandchild then at least give it to charity - but to do something good with it.

AIBU? I know it's her money, but she could really help out my brother and aid his suffering, but she won't listen, the money just sits in the bank earning a total pittance.

the point I'm trying to make is that having money and avoiding the Taxman was my father's career if my father would it be alive he would be hiding his money so he wouldn't have to pay for a care home as he would believe that the state should pay

You agree with your father? That the 'state' should pay for care homes even though he actively evaded tax so therefore didn't contribute to the state as much as he should have.

Farking hell. I'm out.

Don't worry Aye. The local authorities have ways of identifying people who purposely dispose of their assets and charge them accordingly.

Another way to look at it - many older people go into care homes after a number of years being kept in the community by family doing care, either taking them in to the adult DCs home until the elderly relative needs are too great for for family to cope with, or enabling them to stay in their own home with offering a lot of care and support.

Your Mum has 2 DCs with serious health conditions that means she knows when she needs care, it'll have to be paid for, she can't rely on either of you. Realistically, given what you've said about yours/your DB's health, however much you might want to, you aren't going to be able to look after her, and she's probably aware that she'll end up needing paid for care earlier than many of her friends/contempories who do have adult DCs who can help out. (Eg, if something happened like she fell and broke her leg, neither you nor your DB would be able to have her move in for a few weeks while it healed if neither of you could lift her).

And telling her it'll be fine, the state will pay - at a time people are watching social services budgets being slashed, and the state rolled back, she may well think it's easy for you to say "take the risk that the system in place right now will be the one in place in 5-10 years time and spend your money now." - with a Tory government now and a Labour party who don't seem all that keen on trying to win the next election, it would be an insane idea for someone to give away their money on the hope that the State will pay for a decent level of care when she needs it, knowing her family aren't in a position to help her out if she needs them to.

oh and on the tax avoidance thing - you can agree on being frugal with your DH/P, you can agree that you should try to keep a high level of savings and not need to rely on handouts from the State or family, but at the same time disagree on things like the importance of avoiding paying tax. Your mother might well think having the "peace of mind" of money behind her is worth having to pay slightly more tax when she's dead.

avoiding the Taxman was my father's career

Are you David Cameron?

he actively evaded tax

He avoided tax. There is a difference. Look it up. I still think OP should butt out of her mother's life choices and financial affairs.

I think your mother is very wise to keep her money. She may need care in the future, the cost of which had been known to leave families on their knees. Tbh it sound like you just want the money.
Also, under the mental capacity act everyone has the right to be supported to make what others may view as unwise decisions. I can't believe others think you should have poa. Her money wouldn't last long!

My last message came out wrong, what I meant was if my father could avoid paying for something he would have done. He used accountants to keep his affairs in order.
The whole point about the care home is that you pay privately - then once your money has been used up the state picks up the tab, the two care homes my mother in law were in both did this, she didn't have to move.

The whole point about the care home is that you pay privately - then once your money has been used up the state picks up the tab.

Yes, and the responsible thing to do is to pay your way as far as you can. Not piss your money up the wall and thenhold your hand out to the state to pick up the bill. Where do you think state funding comes from? People paying taxes. Not some magic government money tree, people contributing their share in taxes.

But it sounds like your dad raised you to contribute as little as possible in tax while getting as much as possible back from the social infrastructure

I have often thought about this situation of the very old generation being careful with money to the point of being frugal. When they were young mostly wages were paid in actual cash, household bills were paid in cash, shopping was done in cash.
Seriously old people are now paying for shopping by card. Pensions and benefits are paid straight into the bank and household bills are paid by Direct Debit. They don't actually touch cash anymore.
I don't think they can really "see" the amount of money that they have in the bank and if they cant see it in actual pound notes it is not very real to them. I know that older people thought it was such a disgrace if they did not have money to pay their bills and large expenses like a daughter's wedding or their parents' funeral.
It is maybe a mix of all of the above.
It is very often the case that if a person has inherited and/or is known to have fairly big sums of money in the bank there is a person who can see a way to spend the old person's money for them be in on the old person on for their own wishes. Sad state of affairs.

@rubberducker
If he avoided paying for things he didn't need, why did he use an accountant ?
for 350k an accountant is a total waste. I think your father was a spendthrift.

And your mum ? I think you are right. If she took the whole family on a weeks cruise every year, all expenses paid, she could cover 30 years. On the condition that you all take turns wiping her bum from 2045

if she's still around.

make her an offer

It can be frustrating. My grandmother is in her late 80s and while she doesn't have anything like £350k in the bank, she does have a fairly tidy sum saved. I do wish she'd spend some of it making her life more comfortable. Her daily life would be so much easier if she changed her kitchen a little so she had a countertop oven, if she installed a downstairs toilet, purchased a comfortable couch/easy chair, got a good quality mattress and kept her house warmer in the daytime. She is in so much pain on a daily basis all caused, or at least exacerbated, by her lack of these things. My mum and I have talked to her about it and she could easily afford all of them and still have a lot of money left over. She says if she could go back in time five years, she'd have gotten them then but won't bother now as she probably won't get the use out of them.

I've tried every argument I can think of. She could live another 10-20 year for all she knows and in 5 years time she'll be wishing she'd done it now. Or so what if she only has a few years left, that's whole rest of her life. Why not be in comfort for the whole rest of her life. I've even tried joking with her and pointing out that even if she dies the next week, the downstairs toilet will be very useful when visitors come to pay their respects. But she's not for budging.

It's hard to get my head around. We're a frugal family, it's a trait that has passed from her, to my mum, to me. But I can't imagine maintaining a situation that causes me physical pain and discomfort if I had to option to spend a portion of my savings and fix it.

Why is it so hard for people to get their heads around that people live their lives in the way they want to of their own free will?

The state will not just pick up the tab
If you are in an expensive care home you may need to move

I'm trying to make is that having money and avoiding the Taxman was my father's career if my father would it be alive he would be hiding his money so he wouldn't have to pay for a care home as he would believe that the state should pay

Then your father acted like a hypocrite and a thief and fair play to your mother for not following his rotten example.

Thing is, I don't necessarily agree with the argument put forward by right wing types that a small state is best and that individuals should take ultimate responsibility for their own care, but there is a logical consistency to it (on paper at least): the individual pays little in and as a result are only entitled to limited support and uses their own money to pay for their own health/education etc.

However what your father (and by extension you) advocate is paying in as little as possible to the state and extracting maximum benefit, by bending and breaking the rules.

Which is pretty scummy whichever way you look at it.

What we really need is more younger mumsnetters being like this elderly lady. People spend much more than they should and then get in a mess. Adopt the frugality of the generation who grew up in world war 2 and just after during rationing and your life can be a lot better and happier. i am careful with money which is why I am in a strable financial position. The spend spend spenders will get what is coming to them in due course and if they think state provided care homes will still be available when they are impoverished in their 80s I am afraid they may well be wrong.

I assume 21 degrees is for a thin and poorly nourished elderly person that mainly just sits in the living room watching TV or reading, not pottering, knitting or doing anything else that generates heat.

Also, by the way, not a lot of houses have stats in each room, so difficult to heat just one room to 21 unless you add a fan heater or something. Alsp remember that your mother is free to make a will leaving her money to charity if she wants. You don't seem to have any reason not to be able to look after yourself. (Or are you in Scotland? Things are different there.)

Lol at the comparison between fee paid nursing homes and state....let me tell you now, it matters not one jot....ultimately it's not the decor of a nursing home that gives best case, it's the carers and your are just as likely to find shit carers in private as you are in state. (Many years of caring experience and agency so seen and worked in lots and lots of different homes)

My great aunt was moved downcountry to be nearer relatives, into a swanky nursing home with posh house and large drive with lit up water fountains, place looked impressive but the care was substandard.

Best cas scenario in this situation would be power of attorney allowing you to arrange anything extra she needs eg podiatrist, hairdresser, carers etc

75 just really isn't that old. She probably feels that she has no method of accumulating any further funds and she owes it to her dh to be careful. If she lives another 20years she is doing the right thing. Home carers are very expensive if paid privately and care home fees around here are £1600 a week.

Her current income is pretty tiny at £1000 a month.

Op, with all the best will in the world, the way you phrase your OP, mentioning all your and your db's hardships, it does sound as if you are hoping she would give you substantial sums now.

Like all of us you must wait. If you are patient there will be something at the end. I speak as someone who has a mil in a care home for the past 3 years at the rates above. She hasn't a bean left to leave. Tough. The local provision is very poor and she is fairly comfortable which is all that matters.

I'd advise you (worked for solicitors but also knew my grandad/nana both divorced) to sit calmly with mum and ask what she wants for the future:-

Does she want:-

A) warden assisted private flat - my nana had one, useful as she maintained her own independence and didn't really get ill until last few months of her life. However my old solicitor warned people off them due to service charges, being harder to sell on etc.

B) care home where everything is paid for looked after etc.

C) living in her own but with private carers (friend's mum had this for last 2-3 years of her life. Expensive but maintained the mother's independence).

The C) option can be the best as if you plan well you're left with capital from the house after you deduct care home fees or if yiu have money to pay care home fees beforehand.

Depending on value of family home (unless already sold) your mother needs to plan inheritance tax and also seems slightly unfair that she shouldn't pay towards her care home fees with 350K in bank plus maybe from sold or unsold family home.

You cannot do a thing about your mother's frugality or reluctance to give money away (I do hope she has a will) but she can see an accountant/tax adviser etc. perhaps she wants to buy a buy to let property? She does sound quite screwed on re money. Maybe that is the best way forward for her, to discuss money with a fellow professional who can then advise if need be on tax free gifts in her lifetime etc.

Springer have you tried mentioning to your grandmother the benefits (eg of selling the house) of the modifications? Inviting her to stay with a relative (or care home as last resort), benefits of eg stair lift etc?

Maybe she's worried about upheaval of workmen and mess.

Wouldn't POA help out there too? At least re a new mattress

Makingmiricles - while there might be good and bad carers in both state and private, if your family member is privately funding their care you can just move them to another home. If they are reliant on a state place, you take what you are given and can't just move them.

Handing POA to the OP who is openly saying that she should be having at least some of the money now is madness.

Leave the poor woman (mother) alone. She sounds like she's got her head screwed on.

She's only 75 for God's sake!!