AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

Good for you? Most folk don't feel the need to announce it when they report posts.

And your apology to Hovercraft is forthcoming, I assume.

I'll look forward to that little email then, oooh the horror.

I'd like to address Cut's fairly xenephobic post regarding Polish men and staying off grid, again anecdotal, and not in line with the facts, what a crock.

So not only do the Stay posters look down their noses at the the ignorant and uneducated they also use disablist language.

Only to be expected I suppose given that they are fan-boys of Cameron who has cut disabled benefits.

I wonder who they will deem worthy of insulting next.

Have you considered changing your username to UnhelpfulChap? I really don't see how that post furthers the debate in any way.

Extrapolating the one to the many. Interesting technique, if a little lacking in logic.

Helpful, you can't really bleat about name calling when you've been doing it yourself for pages. Rather hypocritical.

I also used that term in refference to its definiton as a feeble or contemptible person, but of course the brexit side are free to insult people yet claim victimisation when it comes back at them.

Also, I'v e never ever coe across this thing of saying that people who back their opinions with data are unimaginative or un thinking. It just goes to show that the brexiteers will resort to anything, the facts prove the opposite of what they want so they criticise the facts ( and then un ironically make links to the Telegraph when they find something that proves what they want hysterical).

I have provided some evidence in this thread but as someone who is undecided (though tending more to brexit ) the assertion that no evidence has been provided is a lie. Repeating that lie will not make it the truth no matter how often it is said .

So little drummer girl where is the the evidence for us benefitting from Brexit? Or that immigration costs us money? Cause this is repeatedly denied yet even the fact checker website confirms it.

Even the evidence provided for car firms not leaving was able to challenge and when it was done so the evidence was "questioned" by asking who paid for it (when links had been provided by that poster to the Barclay brothers owned Telegraph), there has been very little evidence provided for the pro brexit crowd.

Even when you look at the companies saying stay and those saying leave, HSBC Unilever et al (Ie Big companies) are saying stay, where as minnows such as Timpsons backing to leave, mostly because of the opinons of its owner..

Far more evidence has been produced against assertations of the Brexit crowd than have been offered to support it.

Lurked, I have been asking for evidence on both sides of the debate.

I checked out the fact checker and discovered that all of those support it that I looked at- organisation, shareholder, trustees etc- have interests in remaining in the EU. I questioned its impartiality. *

• I didn't get to everyone as I was in my lunch hour and ran out of time. I have reached my own conclusion based on the facts I discovered.

It would be helpful if someone said "I believe that immigration doesn't cost us money. I have obtained my information from this (original), here is the link. I don't find links to newspaper articles etc helpful as they are usually someone's opinion supporting someone else opinion. It doesn't matter how often the opinion is repeated it doesn't make it fact.

I have to say in response to my hover that my sense of logic is pretty good. Insulting me for questioning and not automatically agreeing with you is not persuading me to your argument, if anything it's doing the opposite.

' I recently departed another thread which had a lot of Open Borders people pretending not to be OB, and some of you sound exactly like them. A few giveaways from the Remainers who I believe are also OB/NB, such as gratuitous nastiness and condescension towards an opposing view. You are either youngish smartasses who put theory above observation and have no fucking idea how to debate, or you are the No Borders contingent passing yourselves of as legitimate Remainers.'

Yes, the attitudinal climate here is not right. It needs some work if there is to a proper discussion and honest exchange of views. Do the Remainers really want a discussion - I'm not so sure

I've linked on many occasions to the UCL study and to the OUMO data, which proves this.

I don't think fullfact have vested interests at all btw, its a charity. Which website did you look at.

www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

The economics editor of Sky News fact checks it and agrees too, as does the Huffington Post.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/05/uk-migration-ucl-study_n_6105522.html
medium.com/sky-news/paying-their-way-7c93da3d016#.lidi7d1tj

Startingly both the OUMO and the UCL data show that even if immigrants were to go home then yet the pressure on public services would go down, but the fall in tax reciepts would be more detrimental .

As I said I posted lots of evidence previously, but it gets ignored or I get told that I'm an empty vessel etc.

I've had a quick glance through the link to the ucl data. Although it shows an impressive amount of data, it also admits to making certain assumptions in its interpretation. It includes children over 15 in the data for unemployment figures, this would include a huge percentage of the native population who are still in education.

It may well be a very well considered study but I'm not convinced by its assertions based on the assumptions it's author's have made.

I will have a look at the other one later.

The data it uses is the LFS data so they didn't make it up.

"It may well be a very well considered study but I'm not convinced by its assertions based on the assumptions it's author's have made. "

I think you need to look at the paper again as it says that the assumptions habve been mostly over the fiscal costs. It states that have these have been assumed in a "worst case scenario" which means that they've been fair and estimated high costs of immigration. Yet still find that immigration from the EU is fiscally positive.

I'd also add that the paper has been peer reviewed and been found to be correct.

'Whoopee! Inkanta's back to contribute so much to the conversation hmm'

No. You haven't got the basics right on here for a discussion. Get the attitude right first. Try not to sneer so much.

Lurked - so your choice to remain is based around pure financial greed? Is that all you see? Pound signs. What a strange attitude to have. I don't like greed personally.

What an odd thing to say.

The thing I find most worrying about the "leave" campaign is that no one is really spelling out to voters that in the event of Brexit, we will either end up staying in the single market under a deal like the one Norway have, or leaving it completely and going it alone.

The reason why no one from the Brexit camp is spelling this out is because if we end up with a deal like Norway, it won't address anyone's concerns around immigration or sovereignty, and if we leave the single market altogether, the economic consequences (at least in the short to medium term) are likely to be severe. If they made this clear to voters, no one would vote for it and "remain" would win by a country mile.

Personally I don't equate the desire for our economy NOT to be in the toilet for the foreseeable future with greed. I think that if voters understood the potential consequences Brexit could have for jobs and for the price of essentials such as groceries, they would be a lot more cautious about putting their cross in the "leave" box. That's not greed, that's common sense.

The problem is, the "leave" campaign are doing a fabulous job of dismissing people's legitimate concerns as "Project Fear" and convincing voters that it will all be fine.

I just worry that if the "leave" vote wins, once the economic consequences become clear, the people who voted for Brexit will be saying (not without justification), "No one told us this would happen!"

Boris and Nigel will be fine. They have enough money in the bank to weather the storm.

Um, how does the economic issues discussed relate to greed. Unless I stand to benefit directly from remaining (which I don't) I don't understand how my argument is based on greed.

Yes, the attitudinal climate here is not right. It needs some work if there is to a proper discussion and honest exchange of views. Do the Remainers really want a discussion - I'm not so sure

I agree.

It only takes on rotten apple to drag the whole barrel down and set the tone of the thread.

Springing I have seen quite a few of your posts about the EU or at least seen your admirable in put on them. I have seen interesting debate both ways but sadly, something has gone off with this thread. It does seem as though some childish and immature posters have got the bit in their teeth. I am hoping nearer the time, more interesting debate can be had without the childish name calling.

The reason why no one from the Brexit camp is spelling this out is because if we end up with a deal like Norway, it won't address anyone's concerns around immigration or sovereignty, and if we leave the single market altogether, the economic consequences (at least in the short to medium term) are likely to be severe. If they made this clear to voters, no one would vote for it and "remain" would win by a country mile

Buttered - with immigration the number one - hot burning potatoes, do you really really think that some klutz with no imagination would just do us a deal like Norway, which is a totally different set of criteria?

When people trot this out, its boring. Its clutching at straws, its natural to cast round at what other countries out side the union do. It does not mean we would do it.

"and convincing voters that it will all be fine"

^^ As Lawson said on AM this morning,

"Most of the countries in the world are outside the EU and they are doing very nicely thank you"