AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

Why on earth am I out of luck?

I would be very pleased if someone could honour my request and explain it to me, and also assure me, that we are not at a disadvantage.

what an odd thing to say.

You're out of luck because up until about two hours ago I would gladly have explained it to you. But now I'm just not up for it.

Maybe you could tell us about the Marx brothers instead?

I could do with another laugh.

Step

Link to Government's own guidance on State Aid rules.

www.gov.uk/guidance/state-aid

The question we should be asking is why we even need the EU dictating to us what we can and cannot spend our own tax-payers money on?

Decisions on what should be funded with UK tax-payers money is a decision for the elected UK Government, not for Mr Junckers and his bunch of unelected EU cronies.

If we want to bailout steel / railways whatever it should be our decision.

The only reason we are prevented from doing so is because of the EU's desire for harmonisation.

Harmonisation may sound like a good idea - make everything across the EU member countries as closely aligned as possible.

But

Harmonisation actually destroys competition as it does not allow any one EU member country to have any distinct economic advantage in terms of state (tax-payers) money over another.

This, to me, is bordering on the emasculation of our country. The current 28 countries that should be competing against each other to stimulate trade and innovation and efficiency instead of being strait-jacketed into a one-size-fits-all harmonisation that will enable them to be slotted more easily into the eventual fully-harmonised EU superstate.

That is a dangerous route. As Greece found out, if you upset your EU masters you pay the price. Once you have given up all your soveriegn rights are are living under the suffocating EU superstate there is nothing that could prevent that state from taking away any of your industries. If you think about it the inability to provide state funding to failing critical national industries because the EU prohibits it is a form of quiet emasculation of our indusry by the EU.

Time to leave, spend our tax payers money in ways our elected Government chooses and without having to see permission from the EU.

"As Greece found out, if you upset your EU masters you pay the price. Once you have given up all your soveriegn rights are are living under the suffocating EU superstate there is nothing that could prevent that state from taking away any of your industries"

Greece's problem was that it was allowed to cook its books to get into the Euro and then allowed to borrow at lower rates that it would have been against the Drachma. The next big issue with Greece is that half of its economy is "informal" and done by cash. Greece is immensley complex and can't just be put down to the EU.

Greece's problem was that it was allowed to cook its books to get into the Euro

Goldman Sachs assisted them. The same Goldman Sachs that is funding the REMAIN campaign.

and then allowed to borrow at lower rates that it would have been against the Drachma.

Using the security of the German Euro credit card and using that borrowed money to buy German goods.

The next big issue with Greece is that half of its economy is "informal" and done by cash.

Yes. Greece is not poor. The majority of Greeks are.

Greece is immensely complex and can't just be put down to the EU.

Yes, they are long-standing and corruption and tax avoidance are rife, however I do put a lot of Greece's problems down to the EU. They were aided and abetted by banks to break the rules for Euro entry. Germany with an eye on Greek demand for its products turned a blind eye to the corruption of the Greek accounts that took place to enable it to achieve Eurozone entry.

Greece is now locked into a debt spiral that it can never repay and is totally at the mercy of external organisations and the Troika. But as Varoufakis said, it had no Plab B - it did not have the luxury of its own currency that it could devalue and default its way out of the problem - like Argentina did. It was beholden to the Eurozone and Germany.

What offends me the most is that Greece was offered a settlement and refused it and went on to hold its own OXI referendum on the the offer. When the voice of the Greek public was ignored by the Greek Government the subsequent offer to Greece was on worse terms - a punitive offer.

That was just spiteful, but it served to discourager les autres

Greece could have exited the Euro, that was an option, it chose not to.

I wouldn't be surpised either if Goldman were giving money to the Brexit side too, they cover all options the slimey fuckers.

Greece could have exited the Euro, that was an option, it chose not to

It had not prepared the Greek people for Grexit. The Greek people still thought they could REMAIN in the EU and keep the Euro and get a good deal on their debt issue.

Tspiras was not brave enough to tell them - we can default, leave the Euro, return to the Drachma and rebuild the economy over time. EU membership was not, in Greek minds, negotiable. I met a Greek economics professor over here and his position on this is just one of total resignation - that's how it will be, forever or until something, as yet unknown, turns up. There seems to be no fight left.

But we have to look at it from the Greek perspective. They think the EU gives them protection after memories of living under military rule. They think the EU protects the value of their money instead of the derided drachma- those who have money. For some Greeks, the EU offers them opportunities they would not otherwise have.

I saw first hand the state of Athens when I was there back in 2008. It was a very scary place to be walking around on your own and whole pavements were home to the homeless and drug addicts. I've never seen poverty like that in a European city before. That was 8 years ago. It must be horrendous by now.

I wouldn't be surpised either if Goldman were giving money to the Brexit side too, they cover all options the slimey fuckers

I think both sides are in agreement about that. What I do not understand is why people are not more suspicious of this Goldman Sachs backing of the EU, of the REMAIN campaign.
Goldman Sachs is not a protector of the working man nor his rights. The fact that they are actively promoting a REMAIN vote should speak volumes. The only thing that Goldman Sachs is in this for is Goldman Sachs. What's good for them is not good for us.

Athens has always been a poor city though, back in the 80s it was a poor city as were places like Naples. Southern Europe has always had major poverty problems, probably made worse by 2008, having been lessened in the long boom years.

True. I never went to Athens in the 80s. I was just really shocked at what I saw

I am an EU lawyer too but pro EU and think the state aid rules on the whole work very well. We will all get our chance to vote but I do hope we vote sensibly and remain the EU.

Hey,, Helpful Do you realise that Lurko and Hovercraft are both responsible for the failing gnome industry in this country?

Hey Cut, you realise that your posts are increasingly not making any sense? Oh and that you're not funny :) Do try harder dear

I.e. they've signed them off. And you're trying to pretend you haven't yet decided?
No, I haven't decided.

What you said, I also said, in my post: So the accounts are signed off, but the overall level of error - which comes in at the level of national governments - is on the high side.

My concerns with the EU are that we live on an island, parts of which are very crowded, with very high house prices, and we have no control over immigration - that is, we have no control over population size, and no sensible way of predicting what it will be in five or ten years' time. Constantly bringing in people to compensate for the ageing of our own population strikes me as a Ponzi scheme: at some point, the world's population is going to plateau, so we might as well get the plateauing over and done with sooner rather than later, while we still have some open space and a degree of food security.

It also strikes me that the EU is in some ways anti-democratic, but I will admit that I am not vastly well-informed on that score, which is why I have begun following threads and reading articles about it.

All of that being said, I think that the UK is stronger as part of a larger bloc; that if, as a country, we got right in there, we could make the EU work for us in more obvious ways - we could have more say.

So, despite the fact that Hover seems to have decided that I am a GF, I am genuinely undecided - and like many, many people, I don't know much about the EU (despite the fact that I follow the news, have a brain etc etc), have no idea who to believe about how things might pan out following a Brexit, how stable the Euro is in the long term, etc etc etc. I haven't much faith in economic punditry (I've seen too many predictions be proven entirely wrong), nor in the political class.

It was in the same post, Hover. Apology accepted all the same.

Lumela, your points about immigration would be relevent if the "immigration bounce" effect didn't occur. Many of the immigrants from the EU retrun home after a few years, a much smaller proportion are here for the longer term.

You disucuss a "ponzi scheme" to compensate for our ageing population which is in a way accurate as we need new workers to support those who have retired. But if didn't have them taxes on the working population would have to rise OR the state pension would have to be cut. There are currently something 1 retired person for every 4 people working, this would be higher without immigration and our current austerity problems would be much worse.

There are other benefits to international competitiveness and levels of economic efficiency that immigration brings.

Your point about food security is misled the UK imports aout 50% of its food, food securtity is not really threatened by immigration.

Finally the biggest point about ALL immigration is that the largest part of it is non-EU immigration which leaving the EU wouldn't cut.!

The thing with immigration is that non-EU immigrants, to date, are much likely to be here for the long term. That's why non-EU immigrants are now net takers from the state (like most people) rather than net contributors (EU immigrants as a whole). Because they've started to retire and develop more expensive health conditions as they age.

Obviously we don't know the long term profile of EU immigration but given existing observation of the bounce effect, and the logical conclusion of some of the factors complained about (people living 5-6 workers to a 3 bed semi to maximise money to send home, and whose family roots remain in their home countries, are unlikely to retire there).

I speak as a non-EU immigrant who's currently a net contributor (nominally, it's an inexact science!) depending on how you count the education of my children (ie is it all costed to me, or is half costed against British DH?)

Does anyone know what % of EU migrants return home? the only stats I seem to be able find are those from Migration Watch, who probably have an axe to grind. I live in a rural area and there is a small but noticeable local population now of settled EU migrants - their DC are at local schools etc and they do not seem to be planing to return to e.g. Poland even if that was their original intention. Almost half of immigration is EU immigration.

I take the point about working age population: but sooner or later, the world is going to have to confront this issue. Population growth is slowing, and for the sake of the planet is needs to stop.

I thought we imported about 30% of our food; looking it up, it looks like 40%. That's not great: why make it worse? We're facing climate change and a rising population globally - food is only going to get more expensive.

And along with all of that we have economic questions to which no one seems to have definitive answers.

Does anyone know what % of EU migrants return home?

LUMELA
I know a lot of Poles and Baltics (from 2005). The only person in my group to have returned (to Poland) is a married man whose wife did not want, but really he knew he would never be able to learn English well enough to get jobs. Up to that time I was attending prospective customers with him and interpreting.

Those who have stayed are the singletons and those with partners. They have no intention of going back for a very long time, and if not sending money back to parents, they are busy saving to buy a piece of land or a house back in Poland. But a group of 3 Poles bought a house together for £250k in Greater London having saved up a good deposit working off the grid.

Hey Cut, you realise that your posts are increasingly not making any sense?

Not to you. It's that butteredmuffin-type humourless brain.