AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

Helpful Which rights do the RMT want to protect by leaving the EU? Is it a protectionism/British jobs for British workers type thing?

Is Hovercraft a man then?

I might start calling him/her Lola.

Projection (as in psychology) is a commonplace tool of the psyche. It's not uncommon to find racists as members and agitators in anti-racist organisations, for example. They genuinely do not suspect this part of their nature but from time to time there is what we call leaking .... the true position sometimes bubbles up in various ways.

Agreed. On this particular thread, it is the remain camp that continue to bring up the subject.

Hovecraft: Out of all the EU member states, who do you think is the most xenophobic?

It's always important to understand as much as you can about your co-members, in order to predict with a better degree of accuracy how such a union will fare in the future, and on what types of issues some members would balk. It's an indicator of what could tear apart a union. As you know, not all 28 members are equal.

The first time immigration was brought up on this thread this was the statement:

Great article by Lord Owen. He knows what he's talking about. Priti Patel's quote at the end sums it up for me:

"Massive A&E waiting times, impossible to get GP appointments, health tourism out of control, one in four births in the UK in 2015 was to a foreign-born woman. Definite cause and effect."

Which then led to the debate being entered, now your accusing people of being the ones who "raise" it because they are projecting the issue on to others. Gosh thats some way to try to change the argument

Immigration was discussed on the last page in the statements used in the Fabian society study. It isn't contiually "brought up".

lurked101 What on EARTH are you talking about? I am not speaking of immigration. Hovercraft has admitted that he used the word xenophobic some way back, and I am asking him a question about it. Helpfulchap states that a rather more inflammatory statement was made, but let's just stay on xenophobia. Simple question: which of the 28 members would any of you say is significantly xenophobic?

I don't know the answer to that question and I think it would be very difficult to prove. There was a lot of talk about the Poles not wanting to accept refugees but what wasn't taken into account is the number of Ukranian refugees already in Poland. Poland is probably the most homogenus of states, but having been there often and knowing lots of Poles I wouldn't say that I've seen any expressly xenephobic behaviour or comments by Polish people ( admittedly I'm not totally fluent so..).

There are large problems with racism in many of the countries, often displayed at football matches, but I'm not going to base my judgement on that.

I think xenephobia is a factor in all countries, people fear things that are different and that is normal but can be overcome by education.

Fine, lurked, nice statement. But fear of difference is not the sole reason for this condition called Xenophobia. It's actually possible not to fear difference or other nationalities but still wish to retain one's identity as a nation or as a group of different ethnicities that have combined comfortably and do not want that disturbed.

I put it to you that none of you know what xenophobia feels like, looks like, smells like. What you are arguing about is ideology. Some on here do not want to hook their wagon to the EU star for various reasons. There are too many shadows and shady links associated with staying in the EU. I do not like the influence of Soros, for example, who wants a one-world government eventually. But first we have to get Europe combined.

I've just noticed something rather curious about HelpfulChap.

Yesterday I asked, "HelpfulChap, do you think we should negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, like Norway, or leave it completely?"

He ignored the question the first time, so a while later I asked him directly again and he ignored it for a second time, so then I said, "Are you going to answer the question?" and he said, "What was the question again? I've forgotten." So I repeated it a third time and he still didn't answer.

Today, MaidOfStars has asked at least once, possibly three times, "HelpfulChap, which workers' rights do the RMT want to protect by leaving the EU?" and he is ignoring her.

He got very offended when people suggested that Brexit voters aren't well informed and haven't considered all the relevant issues, but when people ask him directly what he thinks about a particular issue, they get the silent treatment. But he is still here, still posting, and still telling us we are wrong.

Curiouser and curiouser

But HelpfulChap, if you disagree with the view some of us have that Brexit voters are uninformed, you would help your case considerably by demonstrating that you are informed. And yet you appear to be refusing to do so.

"Hovercraft has admitted that he used the word xenophobic some way back" Do you actually read anything? I didn't say that at all.
"I did imply that they might be xenophobic, but it was Helpful who decided to play the "racism" card."

Hovercraft said: I realise that you've come on here purely to dis-rail the argument, but make some sense,

No I am not on here to derail anything. If you do not understand the relevance of George Soros and Bilderberg, then you are uninformed and do not understand who the drivers and players of EU really are. I get the impression this ignorance is centered mostly in the UK, because my friends in Europe seem to be more switched on.

"I put it to you that none of you know what xenophobia feels like, looks like, smells like. "

Xenephobia defiend as: A dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

So I've never experienced this? So in my native north east the dislike of Polish people coming in to work wasn't xenephobia? The continual complaining about immigrants costing the country money ( disproved). In my local pub (strangley a lot of it from generally lovely Irish decsent working class folk that still reside in the area of the Queens Park People's Front) the constant complaint about "immigrants" isn't xenephobia?

On here people making fairly guarded remarks about immigrantion ( and being unable to differentiate between EU immigrants, Non Eu immigrants and refugees) does demonstrate it to some extent, sorry.

If you put that to me, I dismiss it completely.

Bildebery and Soros would have their influence anyway, their influence is pan global its not fair to conflate their influence with that of the EU.

I do not know anyone on here, but I have noticed a link between some of you which goes beyond agreement on Remain. There are four of you who are working in tandem as a pressure group on MN, and that's not kosher, girls and boys.

"a lot of it from generally lovely Irish decent working class folk"

Really? Wow, they have short memories. Have they forgotten the "no black, no dogs, no Irish" signs that some delightful people used to put in their windows?

CutTheWaffle, stop being a conspiracy theorist. I have never spoken to any of these other posters outside this thread.