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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

999 replies

SpringingIntoAction · 06/04/2016 16:33

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

OP posts:
butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 12:23

The vast majority of people vote with their hearts not their heads.

I would say that the fact that "leave" is currently leading in the polls is evidence of the opposite. Sorry.

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 12:24

Who are you referring to, HildurOdegard?

PausingFlatly · 08/04/2016 12:26

Anyway, I've found it helpful to read those arguments as being put forward by the Leave campaign, and can look past the language.

I outright disagree with that Leave "Global influence" argument.

The security one I'd need more detail about, although I disagree about the red tape bit. Immigration I'd say there are elements of truth in both sides, but on balance agree with a PP above about overall benefits of immigration (with being a fully Open Borders fan - I know some people who are hardcore about no borders whatsoever, and disagree with them).

But I'm sure everyone will make up their own minds.

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 12:26

Just realised that I read HelpfulChap's comment the wrong way round and made a rather unfortunate error. Smile

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 12:28

Although it is quite telling that HelpfulChap admits that people are voting with their hearts rather than their heads.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 12:36

Well, that's what ignorant people tend to do. Wink

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 08/04/2016 12:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PausingFlatly · 08/04/2016 12:50

Meh.

without being a fully Open Borders fan

positivity123 · 08/04/2016 12:51

I also agree that the Remain campaign need to be open to discussions about fears people who want to exit have.
It is not racist to have concerns about immigration and if people are worried about it we need to have a dialogue about what to do.
The EU can be undemocratic and is not perfect. However I maintain it is better to be in than out.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/04/2016 12:51

As an aside, FullFact tend to do a pretty good job of fact checking - there is loads of information here: ,,fullfact.org/europe/

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 12:51

Hovercraft hovercraft hovercraft, where I did I say it was better?

I said it is what people usually to do.

You're going a bit pot/kettle again. Bring race into the debate and then accuse someone else of doing it and then deliberately misconstruing my post.

Have you had lunch yet?

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 08/04/2016 13:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 13:03

*"Buttered - I was just going to say that I thought you'd got that arse about tit, as they say!

It's also telling that Helpful thinks that voting with your heart is better than making a reasoned case for your vote. It's rather sad really..."*

Actually I'm a bit conflicted on this. I don't think I would agree that voting with your heart rather than with your head is definitely wrong, as long as people understand that that is what they are doing.

If somebody said to me, "I want to leave the EU because I believe we should be able to control our borders and have full sovereignty over our own laws, and I understand that leaving could cause us economic hardship but I think that's a fair price to pay," then I would totally respect that point of view. Those are fine principles to have, and ultimately it is a question of how much you personally are prepared to pay, or risk paying, for the sake of those principles.

The problem is that a large number of Brexit voters believe that leaving the EU is a no brainer - that we will have full control over our borders AND full sovereignty over our own laws AND that we will definitely be better off financially because our economy will be stronger out of the EU. They think they're voting with their heads as well as their hearts, which is why it is such an easy decision. In reality, it isn't that simple.

It's easy to say, from the relative comfort of our current situation, "I think we'll be better off economically if we leave the EU and go it alone." But people who are saying that now won't be able to keep saying, "We're economically better off outside the EU" in future years if reality is that we are worse off.

It's also easy to say, "I think a weaker economy is a fair price to pay for immigration controls and sovereignty" at the moment, when it's a hypothetical situation. But if, in five years' time, we have high unemployment and people are struggling to make ends meet because the contents of their shopping trolley cost a lot more than they used to and they can't afford to replace their car, will people still feel the same way?

If I genuinely believed that people were fully informed of all the issues, and that people understood the potential economic impact of Brexit and still thought it was a risk worth taking, then I would respect that and think, "fine, well if the leave vote wins, we'll just have to deal with that as best we can."

But I really don't think most people understand the issues, and that is what worries me.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 13:06

Hovercraft

OK, I'll give you that one Grin

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 13:06

Also, on the shopping trolley point. I think a lot of people who want to vote for Brexit are the people at the bottom of the pile who feel that they currently gain nothing from EU membership, so they have nothing to lose. The problem is, people on low incomes will be the hardest hit if the price of basic necessities goes up. I can afford to pay £4 for a packet of pasta if necessary. Lots of people can't.

PausingFlatly · 08/04/2016 13:07

Hildur I can't tell who your post is aimed at.

If it's me, I can reassure you I'm forming my opinion from a very wide set of sources and experience, and over very many years.

But I also want to hear the reasoning of people who have a strong opinion either way, in case there's something I've missed.

lurked101 · 08/04/2016 13:16

That fact check website is good. The immigration "costing" the UK myth is debunked well, and strangely uses sources I quoted previously to do it :)

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 13:21

Just looked at the fact check site. I'm impressed! Will have a proper look later.

I'm glad to see that everything in Catherine Barnard's post "What is the single market?" is pretty much what I said in my post. She is the expert on this subject and wrote the textbook I am using for my course.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 13:25

It is still the remain camp that keep bringing up the immigration issue. You are debunking something that hasn't been brought up by pro-Brexit posters.

PausingFlatly · 08/04/2016 13:28

"It is still the remain camp that keep bringing up the immigration issue. You are debunking something that hasn't been brought up by pro-Brexit posters."

Shock Did you not read the report by the Fabian Society that you yourself cited?

lurked101 · 08/04/2016 13:29

Sorry, further back in this thread Springing was discussing the cost of immigration and kept using this hypothetical two child famiy, which I used OUMO and UCL data to disprove and this is the same data used back fact check. That is what I was refering to.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 08/04/2016 13:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CutTheWaffle · 08/04/2016 13:35

Helpfulchap Hovercraft is projecting. His comment 'Brexiters think dirty foreigners will bow down and grovel in their prescence' is usually the type of horrid comment that comes from someone who does resent other nationalities. Hence the rabid Pro posture. He's confused.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 08/04/2016 13:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaidOfStars · 08/04/2016 13:37

I agree with the general conclusions above that the Remain side has a bit of a PR problem. They are quite dry arguments, conservative (small c) by nature, whereas the Leave side can go full on emotion, win hearts etc.

Does anyone know if there are going to be TV panel debates etc before the referendum?

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