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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not fully understand "cultural appropriation"

295 replies

hettyGreek · 05/04/2016 13:15

It seems like its a US phrase that is slowly getting adopted in the UK.

For the most part I just don't get it. If something is racist just call it racist.

I don't have any issue with someone white having dreadlocks for instance. These have been worn by many people of different cultures across the earth. Or am I missing something? If anything its funny if one culture try to take ownership of something that has a very mixed origin.

OP posts:
DramaQueenofHighCs · 07/04/2016 09:54

Another who agrees with urban dictionary!! IMHO calling out 'cultural appropriation' has done far more to seperate and cause friction between cultures than the actual appropriation which, let's face it, was never really a "thing" before some clever arse american who doesn't understand what racism really is ("using race and things associated with race to claim superiority or inferiority") gave it a smart sounding name!

samG76 · 07/04/2016 09:55

Really Tired - I agree on natural dreadlocks . DH was in SE Asia many years ago, and was so embarrassed by the number of white British gap year kids with dreads that he pretended to be German. The Vietnamese in particular couldn't understand why rich foreigners seemed to have such difficulty with washing their hair...

Inbetweeners the Movie has it down to a T, I think.....

DramaQueenofHighCs · 07/04/2016 10:03

Let's face it - the English culture, and language, has grown out of 'Cultral appropriation - right from when we started to sail and discover new lands. Even he great British 'Potato' was appropriated from another country. (And I'm guessing it would be similar for any other country that has had explorers!) So to remove Cultral appropriation completely would be nigh on impossible - how far back do we go? Cigarettes and tobacco are appropriated - Id see people of all cultures kicking up a storm if they were banned!!

I know what I have said is rather 'straw man' as an argument, but I do think it illustrates the point about how hard these things are to police and what a grey area the whole concept is.

cleaty · 07/04/2016 10:04

I do understand the unhappiness at white people dressing up as "red indians".

BeyondTellsEveryoneRealFacts · 07/04/2016 10:05

Who doesnt love a bit of everyday feminism...

everydayfeminism.com/2015/10/black-american-cultural-appropriation/

cleaty · 07/04/2016 10:06

And yes, fish and chips is Jewish. And it was changed by British people to suit their tastes.

DramaQueenofHighCs · 07/04/2016 10:08

BTW - I'm all for understanding cultures etc. and I do feel slightly uncomfortable at things like Buddha statues being a 'fashion accessory' in the home - I'm just saying what a grey area this whole thing is to 'call out', especially when as others have said, the vocal voices from minorities are those against when many (notice I'm not claiming all or most) couldn't really care less untill it gets pointed out then some of them just support the call out because they feel they ought to. Others just stay quiet because they fear getting called out for ' it caring about their culture' if they say they actually couldn't give two hoots.

cleaty · 07/04/2016 10:11

I think if you take the position of respecting religion, then of course Buddha statues as fashion is CA. Just as a Cross with Jesus would be.
I do not respect religion though.

BeyondTellsEveryoneRealFacts · 07/04/2016 10:14

But the cross was appropriated from elsewhere too, ancient egyptian fertility symbol iirc? as with most of christianity (and probably most of all of the 'new' religions)

BeyondTellsEveryoneRealFacts · 07/04/2016 10:15

And its assumptive again. How does the person judging know whether the white person buying a buddha statue is buddhist or the indian person is atheist?

cleaty · 07/04/2016 10:17

Yes, true Christianity appropriated lots from other earlier religions.

DramaQueenofHighCs · 07/04/2016 10:21

Sorry me again!!! (I keep thinking if more things to say, I'm impulsive, have still only read first two pages)

I totally get why people would think it not ok for religious symbols etc to be used as 'fashion' - those are examples where I think calling 'CA' can be justified. Of course people forget that pagan and Celtic religions have this happen to them every time we celebrate Christmas and have Christmas trees and wreaths - or Easter and have Easter Eggs (especially the ones sold in christian shops with crosses on).
I am TOTALLY for making sure all Minority groups are treated equally, but that goes for minority groups within white culture too!! (And for the record I am a Christian so am speaking out against my own religion here!!)

I'm all for calling CA in theory, but in practice, unfortunatly, I think it's impossible to be totally fair with it, it does hurt me that that is the case, but that's why I don't like the whole concept. The whole thing is just so much of a grey area. I think instead of people calling "CA" all the time there should be more education in schools and other settings about different cultures and why certain things are important to them and why people shouldn't appropriate those things for fashion without thinking long and hard about it. I don't know......... I'm happy to be called nieve on this if I really am being so. I just see it like that.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 07/04/2016 10:31

Pretty much all religions are born from older religions. Monotheist religions are even liberally inspired by polytheist religions.
One of the most obvious example of what you could call CA (God I do hate this expression, it is so divisive and make other more alien imo) is Roman Gods derivated from Greek Gods.
Even Islam is like that. Do you think all Christians are happy that Jesus is called prophet for Allah? Still, they get on with it, as if we need more reasons to tear each other apart and consider that the other is not quite like the same, and should not be seen as much.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 07/04/2016 10:31

Pretty much all religions are born from older religions. Monotheist religions are even liberally inspired by polytheist religions.
One of the most obvious example of what you could call CA (God I do hate this expression, it is so divisive and make other more alien imo) is Roman Gods derivated from Greek Gods.
Even Islam is like that. Do you think all Christians are happy that Jesus is called prophet for Allah? Still, they get on with it, as if we need more reasons to tear each other apart and consider that the other is not quite like the same, and should not be seen as much.

AdriftOnMemoryBliss · 07/04/2016 10:38

as a pagan, there is a lot of my religion that is worn as fashion.. this whole thing about wearing the Pentagram and splashing it across everything.

For those of us dedicated to the Goddess its a very important piece of jewellery that no-one else is allowed to touch, else it has to be re-consecrated.

ReallyTired · 07/04/2016 10:51

I don't think Muslims believing that Jesus is a prophet is an example of cultural appropriation. It just a different religious belief. Both Christianity and Islam have been actively spread across the world and different cultures.

trufflesnout · 07/04/2016 10:55

It's white privilege in action to think that as a member of the majority group who have historically been the oppressors, you get to decide what is or isn't cultural appropriation.

I do see what people are saying about the term CA being banded around a lot, but largely I agree with the above comment. I think a lot of the examples here are classic wrong-end-of-the-stick scenarios (such as Asian men wearing suits, people eating dumplings, etc).

I also wanted to say that I think racism-without-intent is also a thing - you don't have to be overtly racist to do something racially insensitive - such as JK's appropriation of the Navajo legend.

I feel like food is largely a red herring here, except when you come to something like the beef being used in curry - that is a more classic example of CA, and it doesn't matter if it was done out of ignorance or lack of knowledge or whatever - that doesn't mean it can't also be racially insensitive.

The point about true racism is not just that racists are nasty nasty people who wear swastika symbols and go around assaulting others - it's that racism is subconsciously ingrained into society and can sometimes lead very normal people to think or react to certain issues in inappropriate ways.
I think of it in the same way as sexism really. I'm not going to treat a man who calls me 'love' patronisingly as the same way I would treat a man who calls me it because they think they are being polite or because it's a habit, but that doesn't mean I find being called 'love' by anyone appropriate or inoffensive.

nauticant · 07/04/2016 11:04

I feel like food is largely a red herring here, except when you come to something like the beef being used in curry - that is a more classic example of CA, and it doesn't matter if it was done out of ignorance or lack of knowledge or whatever - that doesn't mean it can't also be racially insensitive.

Does that mean that if I open my fridge and see some beef and think "I really fancy having that in a curry" it would be wrong of me to make myself a meal I'd like to eat?

quencher · 07/04/2016 11:05

I actually do think that the last few posters have explained it to themselves without even realising. The fact that a white person with the hair is seen as deviating from the norm of European standard. And for a black person is what they have. The hair is not to European standard of good hair styles. What is considered alternative and on the edge of society. Which makes the black people 'other'. In America black men and women were forced to tailor their hair to the workforce even though their hair mostly on a normal day would be an Afro if not braided.

I also do think that the dreads debate is the list of black peoples problem.

Juliana's comment on fashion police said it all. The fact that she thought the hair was not suitable for the red carpet. What she was implying was that zendya had to wear a European type style to go with her dress. That is why black people where up in arms about it because they thought the world had moved on.

For the people who still say they don't understand the black hair debate is that if you were to see any black panther photo, they all have an Afro hair style. With an Afro comb that has a fist. They are not sold that often anymore. The hair styles in itself is a political statement. The point they were making is that they don't have to tailor their hair to your standard when that is the natural state of their hair. It was a big problem for black people in America. Any black man in most respectable families would be advised to shave their hair to stop being seen as unruly. Yes, you will have people that can get away with it.
I can bet on my hand on Heart, if you were to ask a black mum about whether they preferred their son with a big Afro or not. They will more than likely say he needs to shave his head. It's not that all black men are naturally bold. Am not talking about biracial children hair. Am talking about the ones with your Afro kinky.

Black people monitor each other too, making sure that they meet that standard.
What I always find funny is when a black person says that they are going back to discover themselves or to their find their roots, the first thing they do is get their hair to its natural state or get dreads. Its the list conforming thing they can ever do. To a lot of people they will just see a hair and probably not blink twice. To the black person finding themselves he or she just put two fingers up to the oppression.

Do I actually care if someone else wears black hairstyles, nope. It does not bother me in the slightest. Does it bother a lot of people in America. Yes it does.

Beyond I have just read your link. I think it's great. The first half I agree and understand. The middle bit is more like the black panther reincarnated but true. The last bit I also understand and I think that black people have been encouraging that for so long.

FrizzlyAdams · 07/04/2016 11:07

Nauticant, that's deliberately obtuse.

If you want beef in your curry, put beef in your curry.
The beef in the curry thing was mentioned extensively up thread as a particular example of a curry made ostensibly as a nod to a Hindu celebration, when the cow is a sacred animal to that religion.
Completely different, as you already are aware.

trufflesnout · 07/04/2016 11:10

Does that mean that if I open my fridge and see some beef and think "I really fancy having that in a curry" it would be wrong of me to make myself a meal I'd like to eat?

No. It's just a beef curry. It can't ever be a Hindu curry though, because it's got beef in it.

The original beef-in-curry scenario came from this quote:
arriving at Stevenson Dining Hall with other South Asian students on Diwali, a Hindu holiday, and finding the traditional Indian tandoori made with beef
so that is, someone made a beef curry for Hindus attending a celebration of a Hindu event.

If you did that, you'd be a massive culturally insensitive dick.

Backingvocals · 07/04/2016 11:15

Making a beef curry = perfectly fine. Making a beef curry for Hindus = pretty daft.

nauticant · 07/04/2016 11:21

Nauticant, that's deliberately obtuse.

No, it isn't. trufflesnout made a statement that beef being used in curry was CA and it just wasn't clear whether she intended to mean what she wrote or whether she was referring to something else. It's clear now she meant the latter. But to me that highlights one of the problems of CA as it is applied, words and meanings often become slippery and the policing of CA is not just about people from a culture responding to their culture being diminished in some way.

BeyondTellsEveryoneRealFacts · 07/04/2016 11:22

Definitely agree with all the incidious racism stuff, i think acknowledging that you yourself can be racist/sexist/ableist is a big deal and something a lot of people dont do

RhodaBull · 07/04/2016 11:27

It may be an "oops" moment - but it's not cultural appropriation .

The thing is that these movements suddenly get legs and morph from being something worthy of discussion and consideration to something quite silly and ridiculous that we have to be mindful of whilst secretly thinking it's quite daft.

Mark my words that before too long an advert for a "Cultural Appropriation Officer" for a council will appear in the Guardian jobs section with a salary of £35K + benefits. This person will be part of a team with a vague remit to go and root out "curry night" at a local pub and then landlord will appear in Daily Mail etc etc etc.