To not fully understand "cultural appropriation"

[hettyGreek]

It seems like its a US phrase that is slowly getting adopted in the UK.

For the most part I just don't get it. If something is racist just call it racist.

I don't have any issue with someone white having dreadlocks for instance. These have been worn by many people of different cultures across the earth. Or am I missing something? If anything its funny if one culture try to take ownership of something that has a very mixed origin.

I said except when you come to something like the beef being used in curry - that is a more classic example of CA - I was referring directly to that example and you know it, nauticant

cleaty

I can ask what makes you think tattoos, didn't originate from white people?

Tattoos have a long history right across the world. Every culture derived there own, it was one step on from painting on walls to permenatly painting yourself.

I could be wrong but I understand, that the frozen man found in the Alps thought to be 3000 years old?, also had what looked liked tattoos where acupuncture needles would go, to supposedly help with an ailment. As well as decorative ones.

What about this? Cultural appropriation of belly dancing:

www.salon.com/2014/03/04/why_i_cant_stand_white_belly_dancers/

Is beef curry really bad. There are loads of "kosher style" restaurants around, many of which aren't kosher at all, and some of which even serve bacon. Would I eat at them? No. Are they offensive? I don't think so. My only concern is that people might eat there thinking they were kosher.

We're back to assuming curry is one homogenous thing...

No one said beef curry was bad. What they said was that it was offered as food for those who celebrated a Hindu festival and passed it on as something they could eat. It's like giving pork to a Muslim person during Ramadan. It's more ignorance than cultural appropriation. Which has been stated above.

I agree that giving beef curry to hindus is ignorance rather than cultural appropriation. It need not be racism - but just lack of knowledge and awareness. It's nice if people are knowledgeable and aware but they may not be. That doesn't make them racist.

If I have a tikka masala I'm I culturally appropriating Indian or Scottish culture?

debbriana

"It's like giving pork to a Muslim person during Ramadan. It's more ignorance than cultural appropriation."

Surely trying give a Muslim any food during Ramadan would be ignorance.

Surely a ramadan related example would be not eating during the day with an aim to lose weight?

I agree that giving beef curry to hindus is ignorance rather than cultural appropriation. It need not be racism - but just lack of knowledge and awareness. It's nice if people are knowledgeable and aware but they may not be. That doesn't make them racist.

You're right, it doesn't (and decent people then learn from their mistake and don't repeat it) but that doesn't necessarily lessen the impact on the person or group affected at that precise moment.

I would argue though that if an institution had decided to hold some events or change their menu or whatever specifically in order to celebrate a Hindu festival, it might have been a good idea if at least one person involved in organising it had gained a bit of basic knowledge about Hinduism first? They might even have, I don't know, asked a Hindu person?

I think for those that are having trouble getting their heads around CA I think it can be compared to the way a lot of women feel about trans women encroaching on their safe spaces things and a lot of the time trying to redefine what it is to be a women. Further more in response to some of the posters on here that have basically said be quiet black people because your moaning is making it worse and dividing us by whinning about being oppressed. Would that be an acceptable thing for a man to say to a feminist about her feelings of oppression as woman?
The thing that gets me about a lot of white feminist (especially on here) is they would never tolerate man-splaining, they would never tolerate having their experiences as a woman belittled and minimised by a man but when a black person tries to speak about their experiences the same white feminists turn around and trot out the same arguments that are used against them. I find that level of hypocrisy breathe taking but all to familiar on here.

P.s. can we please have another goady thread about race arranged for next week. I've got my fingers crossed for Golliwogs.

"Surely trying give a Muslim any food during Ramadan would be ignorance" - no they can eat after sun set and before sun rise. It is not a total fast by any means. It just depends on the time of day. Although I would argue we have a moral duty to help ensure everyone realises there is no God and if that offends them that's just tough!

Eustace2016
""Surely trying give a Muslim any food during Ramadan would be ignorance" - no they can eat after sun set and before sun rise."

Yes, I know I was pointing out that it wasn't just pork.

awade it's not the same as taking away womens spaces. Because you aren't taking culture off anyone. You can't take culture away from someone.

Not one has said 'black people be quiet' . People are discussing it how is that saying 'be quiet'

As a feminist I would welcome a man or woman who wanted discuss my thoughts and views on things. They are asking to know why and discuss. I can debate feminism without imposing my views or yelling someone to be quiet, because it's different to my view.

Why would anyone want to shut down debate?

Although I would argue we have a moral duty to help ensure everyone realises there is no God and if that offends them that's just tough!

get a grip. I say that as a atheist. It's not your moral duty to make sure people don't believe in God.

I'm not sure its relevant to CA, but a thing that pisses me off big time, that so many people are running around with communist symbols thinking that its cool. Its certainly nothing cool about glorifying the murderous totalitarian regime. You wouldn't wear a swastika saying "oh, its just an ancient symbol for the sun"

Awade; why are you trying to make this a black vs white thread? People are discussing lots of different cultures, not just black ones.
White people with dreadlocks are often looked down on in the UK; various stereotypes types include dreadlocked 'crusties,' with a dog on a rope, scrounging and listening to trance music.. Do you think they would be welcomed with open arms in to the corporate world? No. It's so not true that white people with dreadlocks are accepted. For both black and white it is the rest of the person's image, and their eloquence and experience that determines how 'acceptable' they are.
Regarding hair in general, 'white' people also have had, and still have, to confirm to a certain style or look with regards to neatness in order to be acceptable in the world of work. 'White' people have to brush, cut, straighten, style blah blah blah their hair too. They don't just get out of bed and rock up at the office '-"au natural,' It is not just 'black' people who have to conform to society to get on in life.

Please recognize this shit as a class issue. All this shit about 'white people' being the oppressor.. Do people really think poor white people lived a charmed life back in the day? Or so they realise thAt it's always been the ruling classes, then as now, working people like dogs to make a profit for themselves.

Oh and as PP said: please can the UK stop looking to the US for anything to do with race relations!

mistressdee- I know it was pages back, but im just in the awkward position of agreeing with what you say about the way things are only seemingly validated once a white person has done it. Its everywhere and its shit, and on the other hand really really loving the simplicity and ease of having dreads, loving how my hair looks for the first time ever, and really struggling to see how it makes any difference to anyone else. Maybe im part of the problem, and maybe I always will be no matter how the hell I do my hair, because I cannot undo the sins of my ancestors, although as all my roots being irish, scottish, and maltese, which have all been invaded and oppressed and cultures sabotaged and decimated throughout history, its also a shame to be lumped in with another group of oppressors because I happen to be white.

Only takes a generation for white migrants to gain privilege I guess

race is def a part of CA. When a racial group is being kept down -not to mention imprisoned and killed -it is far more important to receive recognition for accomplishments. Instead those accomplishments are stolen and accredited to the dominant group. This also applies to women vv men.

So what about long false decorated nails? For a few years I only ever saw black women wearing them. Now lots of white women wear them. Is that CA?

I think that race can come into it but so can class and social status.

What about CA from lesbians? Lots of clothing straight women now wear was first worn by lesbians. And lesbians got a lot of hassle for wearing.

I've read this whole thread with interest and I think in many cases we are looking at the problem the wrong way round. If black people were penalised for wearing dreadlocks, or lesbians for 'masculine' clothes,(cleaty's example above), then that's the problem.

It doesn't mean that white people / straight women are doing anything wrong by wearing them now.

Or to take a religious example - I see non-Christians wearing crosses as fashion accessories. As a Christian, I am officially not offended. For one thing, it's a symbol. We don't own it. For another, it's a religious symbol to me and many other Christians, and people wearing it as a fashion symbol doesn't detract from that. We know what it means to us. If it means something different - or nothing at all - to others, then that's their business.

Branleuse - its your choice to wear dreads if you want to. As said I fully understand why some people would be offended by that, and I appreciate their reasons; the feeling we can't "have" anything of our own - there is always somebody nosing, prying, aiming to emulate, imitate. Like having a big bully hovering and snatching toys "Its mine now!" is how I've heard it described. Yes, its exactly like that.

Its personal to me that, I don't find it offensive but not for "obvious" reasons - it is because I am not a fan of christianity including African-centred christianity, of which Rastafari is a branch. Hence I don't much care.

Brixtonian dreadies do make me roll my eyes, that will never change - Im not down with white people who want to walk the walk talk the talk but would cross the road to avoid saying good morning to a black man or woman.

Im not sure who mentioned the "keeping hair neat at work" thing as being not a good example, as everyone has to keep hair neat at work. Missing the point spectacularly - it is not about at work, or your employer.

Amarmai I agree with, spot on:- Race is def a part of CA. When a racial group is being kept down -not to mention imprisoned and killed -it is far more important to receive recognition for accomplishments. Instead those accomplishments are stolen and accredited to the dominant group. This also applies to women vv men

& yes when I see some minimising the experiences of non-whites in terms of cultural appropriation/race my mind vaguely wanders over the trans threads that seem to get everyone going - most seem to magically "understand" the appropriation of gender, yet close down completely in wanting to understand the appropriation of race and culture, and its effects which include sexism and a certain sub-set of misogyny that will scorn us for the very things they admire in non-black women.

They'll be on another thread totally denying the experiences of women, simply because we are black women or Asian women; I can only deduce from that, an assumed "hierachy"

Thus I am developing a "let them eat cake" attitude with it all. If someone doesn't want to understand me I don't see it as my remit to understand them. It is what it is, life is too short to sweat it.

AwadebumboMk2 re "The thing that gets me about a lot of white feminist (especially on here)..."

How do you know people's skin colour on mumsnet?