To not fully understand "cultural appropriation"

[hettyGreek]

It seems like its a US phrase that is slowly getting adopted in the UK.

For the most part I just don't get it. If something is racist just call it racist.

I don't have any issue with someone white having dreadlocks for instance. These have been worn by many people of different cultures across the earth. Or am I missing something? If anything its funny if one culture try to take ownership of something that has a very mixed origin.

As a black woman I get tired of cultural appropriation. Its very blatant to me what it is and how it impacts

On the other hand I no longer feel I owe any explanation of any form of racism, prejudice, cultural appropriation to non-black people, who normally only ask the question because they want to whitesplain and contradict anything you may have to say about it, arrogantly negating your lived experiences, waiting for you to explain so they can metaphorically slap you down. I think a lot of us get caught in that trap of answering questions and the arguing and debating back and forth because we don't see the "game" of only explanations from those not actually living with experience and its effects, being deemed suitable to answer, aiming to talk "over your head" and telling you what cultural appropriation is, and how you should feel about it.

All you're left with t best is irritation, and the possibility of some having just wanted to goad you and leave you with that unpleasant feeling of having experienced prejudice albeit in a slightly different form, but still prejudice

There's a wealth of info online at the tip of your fingers explaining cultural appropriation and its impact, in very detailed fashion. If really wanting to know and understand, as opposed to any other agenda, then I'd have thought that would hae been a pretty good place to start.

As it is I don't believe any of the wide eyed "but I don't understand..." monthly posts relating to the experiences of non-white peoplebare anything more than stirring. The usual outcome and also people banging their heads against the wall (both black & white people who DO get it but are either ignored, or "shouted down" when they aim to explain and discuss) shows that

Your post Nataleejah makes me think of this:

www.flickr.com/photos/norbet/5706520672

There's so much appropriation there I just don't know where to start.

mistress, your post is pure bigotry

Zoelife, how is Mistress's post 'pure bigotry'?

Serious question.

Agree that Common People is a good example of appropriation - I've made my kids listen to it to make a point before (and its v catchy too, which is nice!)

The majority group of oppressors have been economically and socially privileged, not racially privileged

No, they've been both. How daft to pretend race doesn't play a role.

There's a very clear example of cultural appropriation in my experience - I don't think anyone would dispute that Aboriginal Australians have been treated appallingly badly by white people over the last 250 years, and are still suffering the effects of that treatment (which is likely to continue for generations). There are distinctly Aboriginal art forms, which for many years were denigrated but have in the last few decades become popular and respected.

Funnily enough, recently non-Aboriginal artists have discovered their affinity for producing Aboriginal-style art for profit.

I used to do a lot of work with Aboriginal communities. One of them put it pretty clearly. 'White people took our land and our children and locked us up on the missions and treated us like we were worthless. Now something Aboriginal is worth something, white people want to take that too.'

I can absolutely understand that point of view. The Aboriginal people I knew had no problem with white kids being told stories the Dreamtime or learning about Aboriginal culture - only with white people taking parts of their culture and passing them off as their own. And given the way they've been treated by white peoples, I don't blame them.

On some of the examples given here I'm a bit agnostic. The 'poor cooking' stuff seems a stretch, I'd understand it better if eg the Japanese student had a problem with sushi being served full stop. But it's possible that's my own ignorance showing.

The beef tandoori one is a bit grim, though, especially with Hindu students eating there.

There's so much appropriation there I just don't know where to start.
There is a thing when its just clothes and accessories, and there are things which are holy or offensive.
That picture with cats -- i personally find it bad taste.

How daft to pretend race doesn't play a role

I didn't say it played no role. I said it wasn't the main role. there are countless examples of the oppression of all sorts of people. They are not of the same race.

What they have in common is that they were at the bottom of the social and economic heap.

For example, the Irish and Scottish slaves who were taken to Virginia and the Caribbean.

Dirt poor, treated even more appallingly than African slaves as they were supposed to be freed after a certain time so it made no sense to feed them or treat them medically.

And before that, the Caribs annihilated the Arawaks.

Different race, same sociology and economic outcome.

Very interesting about the Aboriginal experience.

aww i have the life of christ in cats on a teatowel

I have two white friends with what they call 'natural' dreadlocks. Basically they didn't get them done, they just stopped brushing and cutting their hair and over the years dreads happened. I can't understand how a white person leaving their hair to do what it does naturally can be seen as cultural appropriation.

Mistress, I think you've identified something for me that I've never really separated out properly before - that people in dominant cultures (and I'm one) have a really hard time understanding that there are things they really don't or can't really understand.

I didn't say it played no role. I said it wasn't the main role. there are countless examples of the oppression of all sorts of people. They are not of the same race

But when you look at those areas where historical oppression has a current and continuing impact - race is a major factor.

maybe any time im trying to defend myself is whitesplaining. I dont really have an answer for that. I just dont really see wtf difference it makes to anyone how I have my hair. Im not making any profit from it. Im not passing it off as anything, nor am I mocking.

I dont think drag queens are the real oppressors of women either. Just let people get on with their lives if theyre not actually being cunts to anyone

MistressDeeCee - what you said about "whitesplaining" and people negating non-white posters lived experiences really rang a bell with me. Discussions centred on race do always seem to end up that way on MN.

Jassy(!)

In some areas it absolutely does, but I still think the oppression is down to much more than race; in fact I forgot to add gender in there too.

In the example I gave, those plantation owners didn't think 'excellent, pale ginger people, let's send them to cut sugar cane.' They saw a people with no power whatsoever, nobody to care or campaign if they were taken, just a commodity regardless of race.

My Irish friends would argue that, as a race the Irish have been opressed for centuries. They are white. Is that racial oppression?

Those huge green hats and legions of New Yorkers dressed as leprechauns - CA?

Sorry, might be derailing here. Fascinating discussion.

I think in some cases it brings back how unfairly some groups have been treated and that's uncomfortable even if you don't belong to that group. You don't have to be black to be resentful about the way they have been treated.
Imo it is something like what happens in uk with middle class and working class. Do something as a working class person and it is shit, dirty, tacky.
Next day a middle class person does it and it becomes a trend and it is fab, cool, creative.
Also think males v female and some jobs/hobbies i.e. cooking, hairdressing.
It brings you back the feeling of how differently the two groups are seen. One is the 'golden child' and everything he does is seen as unique and creative. It is irritating.

It is fascinating - and of course there are issues of intersectionality, but when you look at statistics on pay, attainment, crime, incarceration - race continues to be a defining factor, not a side issue.

The Irish experience is a really interesting one, particularly from the US perspective, because of course many Americans are just as much descendants of survivors of the famine and English oppression as those still living in Ireland and therefore feel a sense of heritage and ownership that no doubt irritates people living in Ireland. But is it therefore wrong? I'm not sure, given the treatment of Irish people outside Ireland as well as within it until pretty recently.

And in the US (and Australia), ancestry and heritage can have much greater importance an resonance than many English people with long English lineage can really understand, in my experience.

how is Mistress's post 'pure bigotry'?

Mistress is spouting utter ignorant racist drivel,

"non black people only ask the question because they want to "Whitesplain" - so, 4 and a quarter billion people only ever ask the other 2 and three quarter billion people on the earth this question because they want to "whitesplain"??? Which in itself is a nasty, bullying , derogatory term, which Mistress seems to feel she is entitled to use entirely because she is black.

4 and a quarter billion of the Earth's inhabitants apparently trick the other 2 and three quarter billion into answering questions to play games and "slap them down"

100x more likely is that she is spouting this sort of racist bigotry at people, who argue back, win the argument hands down, and she then convinces herself that their arguments were racist, rather than logical.

There is a wealth of online information at your fingertips explaining cultural appropriation and its impact

So, there is a wealth of every type of shite imaginable on the internet.

Notice white people are not allowed to either understand or not understand the experiences of 4 and a quarter billion people???

Not one single example of any form of cultural appropriation that she has any legitimate claim to feel injured by, no of course not, because she doesn't have one.

And I am speaking as a member of quite possibly the single ethnic minority who has leant most to mainstream culture.

No, it hasn't been "appropriated", it has been shared, as have all human cultures, everywhere, and quite rightly.

JassyAconleigh there were NO Irish slaves in the Americas or West Indies. That is a falsehood currently being vigorously propagated by far-right and racist groups.

As for the pp talking about fish and chips andcurry well fish and chips was not seen as a 'smelly ' food but curry was. Of course now it is 'cool'.
And the Italian food was 'smelly' too cos of the garlic but Nigella's garlicsmells of roses.
Can you not see the different treatment?
Can you not see that people have the right to feel what they feel about it?

It depends if you take/immitate something out of admiration, or when your are doing nonsense.
I never heard of Muslims opposing to Antifa folks wearing arabic scarves.
But taking a national dish and cooking in some really bad way -- thats a hanging offense.

And actually, the Irish slaves myth is a pretty egregious form of cultural appropriation, now that I think about it.

Maybe any time im trying to defend myself is whitesplaining

Branleuse No, not necessarily. Everyone has the right to defend themself. But if for instance you are telling me something inherent to English culture that affects you negatively, and I refuse to "hear" you even though you are the one living with the effects of that negativity towards you, then I would be disrespecting you because I have assumed that mantle of superiority that says "I don't really care to understand what and how this has affected you, what is important to me is that I am heard not YOU - and that you accept and adopt my view.

What you and Twenty said about your hair is a different matter, and a lot of it has to do with misogyny and an insidious form of "division" although I wouldn't want to go into that too deeply here. Suffice to say - you have those who will accept certain styles on white women, but on black women its "why you got your hair like that or on the other hand the subtle "its not an acceptable style for this environment". Although publicly of course, they will claim to be "super conscious" and all for "natural hairstyles". What YOU hear and what we hear are entirely different. Its the same school of thought that will pour scorn upon black women for doing "sexy", complete with derogatory names and terms, but if a white woman does it hey, she is just being edgy, and celebrating her womanhood.

Another example relating to it is when Lorraine Kelly mocked a woman's traditional hairstyle on her show. Kelly was inundated with calls telling her that actually, its a cultural hairstyle. Weeks later you have the same hairstyle on the front of a fashion magazine, sported by a white woman. So suddenly, its ok because you have endorsed it. Of course that kind of thing annoys people

Dreadlox are associated with Rastafari which isn't all Bob Marley and clap hands. Its a black christianity movement born out of tribulation, and people deciding they would go as far from what was deemed "respectable appearance according to the standards and requirement of oppressors' society". Hence the hair. Obviously more to it than that, but thats one aspect

Personally I don't care about white people having lox - but thats just me. What I don't like is the "Brixton effect" - sport the lox, listen to reggae go to the "trendy" places but contrive to never, ever speak to a black person in your life if you can help it. I suppose it makes for good dinner party convo, pretending you are "Living on the edge". But as said apart from all that I don't particularly care, albeit I do fully understand and accept why some don't like it.

Following quote is cut & pasted from this link:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/31/living/white-dreadlocks-cultural-appropriation-feat/index.html]

The link is about the recent clip that went viral with the black female student haranguing a white male student about his wearing dreadlocks, accusing him of CA.

I thought that this quote summed up Appropriation vs Appreciation quite well in a broader context.
It's from Feminista Jones, she's talking about how no-one can really 'claim dreadlocks', and how the dreadlock issue is quite blurred between appropriation or appreciation.

"Cultural appropriation is about the power dynamic. When people with power and privilege decide to 'validate' customs and traditions that oppressed people have long been marginalized for by saying 'This is the hot new thing,' then we have serious problems. Or when they refuse to credit the people who innovated those styles or traditions, but claim them as original ideas, then we get into appropriation," she said.
"Showing love for something awesome and doing so with respect to the culture is appreciation and I don't see problems with that, for the most part. I do think white people have to be mindful of their privilege, though, and think twice before hopping on the newest 'trend,' especially if it clearly borrows from disenfranchised people."

I can understand the annoyance of things being looked down on, until a more dominant group start doing it or wearing it. I would not call it CA, but it does highlight clearly racism.

The picture of the cats is surely mocking of religions?