To think saying house prices could crash if we brexit will be a plus for many

[feellikeahugefailure]

The BoE and other banks say this as if it is universally bad news. If it stops the vast amount of foreign speculation on UK property then many will see it as a good thing.

Even if you own your own home, its paper gains unless you sell it. So even homeowners might want prices to fall as otherwise their children may never own a home.

Whatever, this is pointless.

"I don't care where you bin, you ain't been nowhere till you've been in......"

It's interesting that nobody mentions Putin on this thread. Russia would like nothing more than to see the EU fall apart. Putin was pissed off as hell when many of the former socialist states were brought into the EU. Life would be extremely dangerous for all of us if a brexit triggered the breakup of the EU with Putin at the head of Russia. It's not all about immigration into the U.K is it.

Figment

That's a whole new thread's worth of discussion.

If I were Putin I would be pretty pissed off the the EU as it attempts to groom Ukraine into EU membership by giving it millions of Euros each year to encourage it. The EU has already been responsible for a change of Govt there as the previous Govt refused to consider EU membership

We would feel the same if Putin tried to woo Scotland into a new federation

The EU is an empire. All empires expand. The trouble will start when the EU rubs up against Russia and tries to absorb countries into the EU, that are strategic to Russia or any other major player

I don't feel the EU gives us security at all. Quite the opposite. I fear the time when it has its own EU Army and starts using it to expand its empire

i agree with you Springing.

I am flummoxed when we see a tattered, failing state struggling with crisis after crisis, with leaky to non existent intelligence ops, many other dodgy practices going on at high levels behind closed doors and yet people INSIST its a safe place to be in!

I can only think some posters ONLY READ THE GUARDIAN which as we now know does not provide good balanced articles on a daily basis!

It does seem like some posters have been brainwashed into blindness because the EU's failings are not hidden, they are there, happening right now for all to see!

whether or not Belgium is rubbish at security, they are just across the north sea and we are still going to have to rely on them to protect British security.

The U.K. Cannot to be towed away across the Atlantic.

They rely on us a great deal Merry, and whatever happens they always will. Our intelligence ops are far far far better than MOST if not all the EU countries.

and whatever happens they always will.

A quick look at history shows that no country is always guaranteed to be better at anything however, geography means that many/most people travelling to the UK must travel across Europe. We will always rely on Europe for intelligence.

The Dutch are holding a referendum on the Ukraine/EU situation.

Ukraine being absorbed into the EU brings more danger from Russia than the break up of the EU.

The guardian is more balanced than some others. In any case I have cited the ft, the economist, Oxford university and ucl data as well as precedent from non EU countries with large amounts of trade with the EU to back my points. Not just the guardian.

I do wonder about the impact of Ukraine though, the Polish have over a million Ukrainian refugees and economic immigrants. Do we allow the Ukraine in and risk putin's wrath or do it for economic reasons?

Do we allow the Ukraine in and risk putin's wrath or do it for economic reasons?

Yea, let's let it in. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

So in today's sorry news ( NEVER GOOD NEWS IS IT RE THE EU), the most powerful body in the EU, The European Court of Justice, which can overrule national law and parliaments was accused of misleading the public and abusing its procedures.

" The abuse of the judical system by the court itself demonstrates that it will effectively manipulate and break the rule of law in order to increase their powers"

Yet people are looking to this lot ^ to protect^ them from the Tories.

" The abuse of the judical system by the court itself demonstrates that it will effectively manipulate and break the rule of law in order to increase their powers"

But Buds, this cannot be so. The ECJ sits above us all, the all powerful protector of our rights and defender from the wrath of Dave.

It breeds pink and fluffy kittens on a commune just outside Droitwich.

You must be thinking of some other ECJ. Oh yes, surely.

"The United Kingdon has the 32 largest population of refugees, which somewhat makes your argument on that point irrelevant anyway. Only 11.3% of the population are immigrants anyway."

What about the non-EU people who are living and working amongst us (off the grid), and who have been in England for upwards of 10 years? They are not paying taxes, merely earning and paying rent. They may go back to their countries of origin one day, but then again they may not.

Springing ---- Really? Show me where it says that I can chose to live in the U.S. or Canada iof Aystralia simply because it trades with the EU. We can't. We don't have to accept free movement to trade with the EU.

This is the clause that Brexiters hope not to have in trade agreements. We would need a real mover and shaker negotiator drafting new EU trade agreement. Whatever Norway signed with EU is not relevant to any new agreement UK submits. Every deal is unique.

No one goes to Latvia, Lurked. The Latvians are over here - I know loads of them.

CutTheWaffke

Springing ---- Really? Show me where it says that I can chose to live in the U.S. or Canada iof Aystralia simply because it trades with the EU. We can't. We don't have to accept free movement to trade with the EU.

What are you on?

I'm a Brexiter. Why are asking me to explain what I didn't write? It's the Remain crew in here who are convinced we are a mincy wincey little insignificant wet dollop of shite just off the coast of La Belle France, not me.

Anyway, we've moved on. We've decided to risk annexing Ukraine into the EU in the hope that nice Mr Putin, who has now finished killing all those people in Syria, doesn't decide to invade us in retaliation or, heaven forbid, nuke us!

They have a higher % of the population who are immigrants than the UK.. OECD data also says that so do many others.

All of your posts rely on hyperbole don't they? You've been given data and respond with opinion. Also you conflate the unseen immigrant issue with freedom of movement within the EU.

Though to be said some of your more florid posts and wild assumptions do make.me chuckle.

I do love a bit of data me, so I'll just leave this here, I went to the fairly anti immigrant Migration Watch website to do this.

for the last few years net migration from the EU 14 countries (65% degree level workers and likely to be in higher level jobs) is far higher than net migration from the EU 8. In fact net migration from the EU14 in the for the last two years ending Sept 2015 was 80,000 and net migration from the EU8 was 42,000, down from a height of 87,000 in 2007.

Basicaly what this means is that far more people from the EU8 return home after a few years of living and working in the UK than from the EU14, but also that a lot of people from both return home.

Now the Telegraph (using my previously mentioned University of Oxford Migration Observatory data) estimates the no of EU 8 workers in the UK to be 942 000 which is 1.2 % of the population. The number of retired peope in the UK is 10 million equating to 15% of the population. So really we are getting to a situation where we need immigration to support the growing number of retired people, National insurance payments are not hyptothecated and therefore we need more people working in order to support the growing retired generation.

Secondly, the OUMO (as cited above) says that most immigrant workers of all kinds but especially of the EU8 and EU2 are likely to be younger and therefore not have families, and as they are likely to go home, your example family is going to be a very small % of any of these groups. Previously as stated the UCL study found that EU migrants make a positive fiscal contribution.

The notoriously conservative (note the small c) Ecomomist using data from the BOE as well as Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, HSBC etc also think that the long term economic effects of Brexit in terms of trade and the UK current account will be "adverse", especially as studies show that EU membership has helped UK economic growth greatly (well it would seeing as a regularly agreed 45% of our exports go there)

It also says: " Norway and Iceland have access to the single market through their membership of the European Economic Area (EEA). But they are obliged to observe all the EU’s single-market regulations without having a say in them, to make payments into the EU budget (in Norway’s case, around 90% of Britain’s net payment per head) and to accept free movement of EU migrants"

AND even to further the point that while Canada and others who while having to abide by product regulations do not have to accept migration, they have a far smaller percentage of exports to the EU as 78% of Canada's exports go to NAFTA countries. those deals do not include financial services and other very important industries to the UK's balance of payments.

The EU is the largest trading bloc in the world, within it we have access to 52 trade deals that are on going ( TTIP is another matter I don't back it) but outside it we are weaker in negotiationg points with all of these other markets, this does not benefit British business.

As was said about Scottish independence, stronger within, weaker without, the same goes for the UK with the EU.

So, then my data comes from, the OECD, OUEO, Telegraph, Economist, UCL, Migration watch, where is yours from?

One last thing:

"Our intelligence ops are far far far better than MOST if not all the EU countries."

Wasn't there someone who once said, " Everyone thinks they have the pretiest wife at home"

That basically deals with that one..

lurked101 Thanks for your excellent, much needed fact-based posts.

springing on your comment " It's the Remain crew in here who are convinced we are a mincy wincey little insignificant wet dollop of shite just off the coast of La Belle France, not me. "

No. You are just plain wrong if you think the Remain "crew" thinks that. Wrong and divisive. Please quote your facts' sources as lurked has suggested. Just spouting unsubstantiated opinions, arguments and petty insults really kills constructive debate surrounding a serious issue. Thanks.

There are three types of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

The Scottish situation is odd. Almost half of the Scots want to break with the UK but stay with the EU.

I think Brexit can be sumed up quite succinctly from my perspective.

Short term pain for long term gain.

Haha helpful you are right, of course

On Scotland, I never understood the big victory celebration about Scotland wanting to stay in UK. The final outcome was something like 45% wanting to leave (in absence of economic modelling or even basic confirmation regarding currency).

Nicola's made it clear (I think) Scotland will seek to remain in EU irrespective of EU referendum outcome, which I assume implies (that in the event of a brexit vote) another 1) Scotland-UK referendum , then 2) Scotland-EU referendum immediately afterwards (or more likely simultaneously since rejoining EU would implicitly be the Leave case for Scotland-UK ref ).

This also raises another interesting point for me: if the EU referendum vote outcome = remain, then in my understanding there is zero reason (constitutionally) why another referendum could not be held in the future if a change in situation prompted that. Does anyone know if that's correct?

We live in interesting times.