To cringe at the phrase "England isn't England anymore"

[Sounddofsilence]

Said by a friend.

Another one sounded off about Easter Eggs now being called Chocolate Eggs so not to offend people because it was on the news!

Argh!

My racist/xenophobe (against Asians and Eastern European) aunt who is black says all this but the "england she grew up in" had "no dogs, no irish and no blacks" so go figure

England isn't the same as it was in the 20th century no but i won't pretend that as the child of immigrants i don't have a jolt of fear, alienation and "you don't belong here" when i hear that phrase

YABU
Many people feel it HAS changed.

Political correctness has gone mental.

Umm, care to expand on this?

I've asked too, Cerseirys, and for expansion/explanation of the other points, which are not at all clear.

'These days, if you say you're English, you get arrested and thrown in jail'

Possibly because anybody who expresses even the mildest concerns about immigration are generally branded racists Cerseirys
I guess it all depends on individual experiences. Some communities have seen a very high influx of migrants over the last few years and those who live there probably believe their way of life is under threat.... rightly or wrongly...... but when concerns are expressed they are immediately branded as bigots and racists while the authorities tip toe around their concerns

OnlyLovers Whilst I also cannot fathom most of carmen's post and hope she clarifies, I think I can answer how do you mean 'you could be forgiven for thinking you were in Saudi Arabia'? And can you explain how and why that's a problem?
Seeing women covered from head to toe - especially little girls - whilst the men and little boys get to wear whatever they like, and practical clothing... it feels like a step back for feminism. I've also noticed certain immigrant men in various other ways treat women like second class citizens - being rude and dismissive to female shop assistants for one, lots of street harassment as another example (to a far, far greater extent than from indiginous population).

I'm not anti-immigrants, just some of the male ones (!) and cultural aspects leave a lot to be desired for women, and it can feel oppressive as a woman in an area with a high immigrant population. Mind you I'm including men from eastern Europe as well as those from the Middle East and Asia, carmen seems to be being more specific...
Of course, for the women themselves and their daughters/granddaughters in particular, it is likely a step forward for feminism to be here! But for the UK culture... I don't know. I hope it doesn't make sexism too acceptable due to the fear of being "racist".

element, Of course, for the women themselves and their daughters/granddaughters in particular, it is likely a step forward for feminism to be here!

Personally I think this far more important than what some white Western women might think of women covered from head to toe.

I've also noticed certain immigrant men in various other ways treat women like second class citizens - being rude and dismissive to female shop assistants for one, lots of street harassment as another example (to a far, far greater extent than from indiginous population)

This is a conclusion drawn from a sample size of one – your personal experience – and so purely anecdotal. Having said that, I'll add my own anecdata and say I've seen men of all stripes behaving like this. And women of all stripes, for that matter.

Also, your use of the phrase 'indiginous population' doesn't do a lot for your credibility.

TBH,while your response is pretty well thought out, I suspect that this isn't really how carmen meant her comment about Saudi Arabia. Would be happy to be corrected, though, which is why I asked for a bit more explanation.

I should think every country in the world is changing. It's natural that ways of life associated with a place, are constantly changing. For me most changes are the result of the rapid development of technology. Sometimes it's sad - when change results in traditions and skills being lost forever, but often it brings benefits with it - improved health care and knowledge, access to education, rights and equality.

I'm in my mid-50's and no way would I want to go back to the 60's and 70's again. The food, healthcare, housing, standard of living and quality of education, I grew up with would now be classed as totally inadequate. I grew up in an immigrant family and remember my grandparents saying how when they arrived, their neighbours thought they were odd/not willing to fit in/dirty etc and worried about them 'taking over'. My Dad hid his background when he had to join up in the war because he was really frightened about how he would be treated. Now there would be awareness of racism , the right to report it and for action to be taken if he had been treated badly.

Life is very different now to when I was young, but in virtually every way, it's far better in my opinion.

Blimey!
I think we remember the good things and forget the bad
I was at school in the 70s.... And it was normal to call Down's syndrome children "Mongols", it was normal to call anyone Asian "paki", people were called "spazzers" if they did something stupid, or Eppis if they had a fit, girls were routinely teased, bum pinched, lusted after by middle aged teachers,
teachers actually smoked at school, gay boys were ALWAYS picked on and bullied, gay girls wouldn't let it be known for fear of bullying.
Things are MILES. Better today.

what people mean when they say this, ime, is often "there are lots of black and brown people living here now."

OnlyLovers Personally I think this far more important than what some white Western women might think of women covered from head to toe.

It not about what Western women think though . It's about women and girls being visibly treated differently, and even segregated, and that being seen as acceptable by society at large.

Also, people are moving to the UK from countries where women are treated like second class citizens, or even like property! It's not racist (surely?) to suggest that may have an effect on sexism within the UK? How much effect it has over time on the culture, I don't know - I sincerely hope not a lot. I'd be interested in any studies on this, if you know of any.

If men from more sexist cultures who see women as property are moving to the UK, my experience of street harassment is likely to not be a one-off. And frankly, why does your personal experience trump mine? We'd have to do some kind of sociological study really!

I don't think ignoring people's concerns and branding them racist helps really. I suspect my overall view is far closer aligned to your own than carmen's, but I've noticed a weird indoctrinated blinkered sort of attitude on the political left towards this subject. Personally I've found engaging with people's concerns and presenting actual facts (rather than just propaganda from the othe other side) the best way to challenge incorrect assumptions or prejudiced opinions. Unfortunately opening your eyes does mean you notice some of the grey areas; it's not nice and easy black and white, good and bad, sadly.

As for the phrase "indigenous population" - is there another way to describe people born or at least raised here within our culture, to distinguish them from those born or raised elsewhere with different cultural norms? I just wanted a non-clunky phrase to use.

On the subject of nostalgia, I think a lot of it is that people remeber being young fondly. So it follows that they will associate that with the standards and lifestyle of the time, and sort of assume it was that which was better.

I recently met an old man in a country that is a former British colony. Embrassingly, he was really positive about the British, really emphatically saying we were the best country in the world and what a shame we didn't have an empire anymore, and how his country was better under British rule. This naturally struck me as odd, until I considered his age. His memories of colonial rule would all have been (guessing) before the age of about 12, so all rosy times in his mind...

element, if you don't think women covered head to toe is acceptable then why do you assume 'society at large' finds it so? And 'acceptable' is a difficult word in itself; it may not be in line with what a Western woman wants or likes, but it's acceptable in the sense that most people (one hopes) won't tut or sneer or disapprove of women dressed like that.

Also, people are moving to the UK from countries where women are treated like second class citizens, or even like property! Yes they are. I didn't deny that. All I said was that I have also seen a lot of bad behaviour from men (and women) of different backgrounds and ethnicities too; or, to put it another way, why focus on bad behaviour by one group and ignore bad behaviour from others?

I do not know of any studies; do you?

frankly, why does your personal experience trump mine? I don't claim that it does; I explicitly said that it was anecdotal. I was making the point that, when it comes to personal experience, your means both as little and as much as mine.

We'd have to do some kind of sociological study really! Yes, indeed. I don't disagree.

I haven't branded anyone racist.

How about 'British-born' instead of 'indigenous'?

England is the same small minded judgemental bland tedious little moaning penny-pinching place it always was, with its thug towns and constant 'foreigner' complaining 'he's not from round here/one of us/new/oddball etc etc.

The phrase England isn't England anymore is proof that is is still stuffed full of backwards nasty vindictive super-Scum.

Friend of mine was told in Tesco's just recently that they don't call them 'Easter' Eggs any more, because it isn''t politically correct. So misplaced IMO. Just infuriates a lot of people, makes them resent the religion that is supposedly offended (nearly always supposedly Islam) and thus achieves precisely the opposite of the PC intentions. And the thing is, the people they imagine would be offended, hardly ever are. Might add that I lived in Muslim countries for 13 years so I don't think I'm entirely clueless about these things.

The ignorance and xenephobia on here is shocking.

First off comments regarding walking round your area being like Saudi Arabia? Oh yeah right when 5.02% of the population are Mulsim and most of those are not fundamentalist.

Religious terrorism a bigger issue now than the 70s? So the IRA were not religious and not operating in the 70s etc. Bollocks.

You cover your xenephobia by caring about women's rights? You don't care, you've just found a way to criticise. If you don't think sexism goes on every day to "indigenous women" go look at every day sexism.

Every single one of your points is erroneous, and even though you dress it up in a way that you think sounds like you are not racist, its easy to see through.

England is a melting pot, always has been, which England are you harking back to? The one of the 70s/60s which had sexism, racism (but you wouldn't mind that), open bigotry, hidden sex abuse. The 50s with its law against homosexuality/suicide and divorce and all of the above?

There is no such thing as an "indigenous" English (Anglo saxon by definition so therefore German), our language is based on Fresian Dutch, combined with Norman French, Norse, Celtic, Latin, Sanskirit and many more.

We are a melting pot, its great, it always has been.

Oh and to the poster who said they hope their children end up somewhere rural, it might be best if you do so no one can hear your views, which quite frankly are disgusting.

Friend of mine was told in Tesco's just recently that they don't call them 'Easter' Eggs any more, because it isn''t politically correct.

It isn't true either.

Political correctness gone mad has been a right wing staple for dimwits for a long time.

Easter Eggs are advertised as Easter Eggs in all of my local supermarkets, EVERY supermarket chain has "Christmas" adverts on TV.

Stop believing bollocks and using it to cover your unsavoury views.

So Scotland and Wales aren't the same as England then
Why single out one country out of the 4 that make up the UK
So the Scots, Welsh and Irish are not indigenous either
perhaps you should all be condemning 'Britain isn't Britain any more'

Is embracing change always a progressive/optimistic state of mind? Is there a value in certain forms of nostalgia? Is nostalgia ever able to be progressive and even revolutionary?

Very interesting. It immediately makes me think of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, but there must be other, perhaps less brutal examples.

Friend of mine was told in Tesco's just recently that they don't call them 'Easter' Eggs any more

Not by Tesco though. Visit tesco.com to do your grocery shopping and you'll likely see a banner ad "Join the Easter fun" www.tesco.com/groceries/MarketingContent/Sites/Retail/superstore/mercury/p/i/zones/easter/2016/1651-Easter-header.jpg and a banner "Hunting for Easter eggs? Our Easter bunny has a great range for you in store" .

Might add that I lived in Muslim countries for 13 years so I don't think I'm entirely clueless about these things.

Bingo.

Now, that is a traditionally British game enjoyed throughout the land. We revere it so much, we call some of the temples in which it is played after Islam's holiest city. What higher commitment towards peace between nations can there be?

I don't know what made that pop into my mind...

Friend of mine was told in Tesco's just recently that they don't call them 'Easter' Eggs any more, because it isn''t politically correct. So misplaced IMO. Just infuriates a lot of people, makes them resent the religion that is supposedly offended (nearly always supposedly Islam) and thus achieves precisely the opposite of the PC intentions. And the thing is, the people they imagine would be offended, hardly ever are. Might add that I lived in Muslim countries for 13 years so I don't think I'm entirely clueless about these things.

How terminally dim do you have to be to believe this kind of stuff?
None of this bullshit stands up to two minutes of even the slightest scrutiny.

Is embracing change always a progressive/optimistic state of mind? Is there a value in certain forms of nostalgia? Is nostalgia ever able to be progressive and even revolutionary?

Nostalgia is the sort of wistful longing for an imagined past, both in dictionary definition and usage here :). conservatism (small c) which I define as attempting to ensure the good values from the past are not lost in the process of becoming the future I would have thought is of significant value. Change, especially social change is almost always better for being evolutionary and not revolutionary.