to ask if some drivers really do have this opinion about motorcyclists?

[Shinyredbike]

I ride a bike. A shiny red one in fact

I'm a member of a biker group/page thing on FB and came across a rather nasty post, it was a screenshot of someone ranting about motorcyclists and how irresponsible they are, how they should grow up and get a car and stop messing around on their toys (bikes).

He also suggested that it wasn't his responsibility to look out for bikers when he is driving, as the adverts suggest you should, and that bascially if you ride a bike its your own fault if you get injured or killed as you shouldn't be on a bike in the first place.

Now, obviously this particular guy was a prick but is his view actually quite representative of a lot of drivers? Ok they might not say it so harshly but actually I do think, from the conversations I've had with car drivers that a lot of them do seem to feel this way.

I know a lot of bikers do ride like twats and obviously they shouldn't, and I can't blame car drivers who dislike bikers who act this way but aibu to wonder if some drivers really do just inherently dislike bikers even when they don't ride like twats?

Fwiw, I don't ride like a twat, I don't speed, overtake stupidly or filter when I shouldn't. Actually I don't really filter at all because in most cases I don't feel safe doing it but I've had some pretty harsh comments directed at me just because I prefer bikes over cars, as if I am some sort of idiot with a death wish!

I've just, literally JUST before your last post, said 'okay, I meant 'vehicle space'. And explained that a) I was fucking tired, and b) I was not expressing myself well. But you feel free to seize on the bit that suits your agenda, and keep spinning out some universe in which I try to kill bikers.

As for your question, I expect that if you try to queue jump - which is what 'filtering' is, it's going past slower moving vehicles because you don't want to wait in turn, like those who can't fit in the smaller space have to - then you lose the 'right' to then push back in when you fancy it. As it happens, I always let bikers back in, because I'm not a twat. They are, though, for zooming past then pulling back into a space I've left for safety reasons, thereby making me brake to reestablish that space. So the bike gets to a) queue jump, b) pull in whenever and wherever suits and c) slow down the queue further. Think Bike? Yeah. I know what I think.

As I say, you should educate yourself about bike safety. Filtering is not about "queue jumping", have you tried to keep a quarter of a ton of two wheeled vehicle stable at walking pace for potentially miles on end, whilst slipping the clutch all the way (because that is necessary on a bike to maintain stability at slow speed). Further, bikes have no reverse gear - keeping moving is often the only protection you have when a driver suddenly throws his car into reverse in a queue. Do you really have to brake to allow a bike into a space in stationary traffic? Seriously? If filtering is done well, the biker should have planned his or her route back in to the traffic, but many idiots will deliberately accelerate to close the gap and risk the life of the biker!

I've done the advanced IAM test btw where you are assessed for an hour and a half by a class 1 advanced police motorcyclist (who must already be advanced drivers before they are allowed to take the advanced motorcyclist exams). Filtering is expected on test and not filtering or overtaking when appropriate is marked down, because filtering and keeping moving in traffic is often a safer opinion. That doesn't mean using the road as a race track and that doesn't mean it should be done in every situation and many bikers do filter inappropriately. It had been externally verified that I am not one of them, thank goodness. I treat other road users with respect, but simply ask for the same courtesy and understanding. Is that too much to ask? Clearly so, given the attitudes on this thread. There are many disadvantages to using a bike and a few advantages. Car drivers should educate themselves on how and why bikers use the road as they do (and in some cases, yes, some bikers are twats, as are some car drivers), rather than expecting everyone to use the road as a car does.

That is all very well, but as you said many bikers aren't considered either nor have advanced training and haven't planned their route in advance while filtering.
And while a bike may navigate a traffic jam in 15 min, car motorists may have been there for 30 min or more and it can be difficult to maintain the same level of overall awareness constantly for that time and pay attention to every biker filtering around us or coming in our direction. Particularly as they rarely indicate in good time and just turn when they need.

It's like the comment that on MN all motorists are considered and safe (suggesting they're lying or a rare case). The same applies to bikers.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, Lweji, but are you saying I am lying?

Ime the reason many car drivers don't maintain the same level of concentration in a jam after 30 minutes is because many are in the phone after that time, though yes, in some cases their concentration is just waning. It's drivers who take the attitude that bikes should not jump the queue though who often risk the lives of bikers by irrational moves so that bikes can't reintegrate with the traffic. I've heard it said before (not on here) that they are just, "beating the bikes at their own game". Well that's nice, what is a "game" to those people can be dangerous for a biker.

It is a topic I'm sensitive about because two people close to me have had serious accidents, which have been verified as being the drivers fault and in all cases, the driver was more bothered about themselves than they were about leaving a fellow human being in the middle of the road. I also ride about 300 miles per week (about twice the number of miles the average car driver will do) and frequently experience tailgating (even at 70 mph - do you know how frightening it is to have a car on your back wheel at that speed?), aggressive behaviour, people thinking it is acceptable to race to name but a few).

I'm not saying you're lying.
I'm referring to an earlier comment that could only be taken as either good MN motorists are lying or a rare breed that only exists in MN. And pointing out that the same applies to bikers. Either lying or a rare breed. So, assuming you are a good biker, it's safe to say that most biker's behaviour is difficult to predict and many times unreasonable.
There are also assumptions by bikers here regarding where it's ok for them for position themselves that are wrong in terms of traffic flow and safety.

I know how it feels to be tailgated. I was today. And most days that I drive. Including by bikers. But you won't experience that on your bike.
I also know how it feels to have bikers pull out suddenly in front of me (not on phone) and fearing for their safety. Which you don't experience on your bike.
I also know how boring and tiring it is to be in a long queue of stopping and going, which you also don't experience in your bike.
So, you can speak from your experience as a biker, but you can't vouch for all biker behaviour, nor you experience it so much.
And not saying that drivers' behaviour is exemplary. Just that many times the danger comes from bikers themselves.

I've said many times on this thread that some bikers behave like twats (they mainly tend to appear on sunny Sunday afternoons though, thank goodness). They tend to be the ones that are noticed and heads are shaken at their behaviour, the ones that go unnoticed are the ones who quietly and competently get on with going about their journey. However, as experienced from the behaviour and attitudes on this thread, those of us who do the later are persecuted because of the former.

And, yes, I do know what it is like to have vehicles pull out in front of me. It happens daily on my bike.
I do know how tiring and boring it is in a long queue, because not only do I drive a car (with 20+ years experience), there are times when I don't filter through traffic on my bike, because you must always look at the balance of risk and decide whether filtering or standing in the queue is the least risky move at the time. Sitting in the car in a queue is still is still not a reason to get a phone out as so many do.
Are you aware how much more terrifying it is being tailgated when doing 70mph when you don't have the protection of a metal cage behind you and when you know that if you need to slow down, you'll do it much faster than the car on your back wheel and you know braking in a bend could kill you. Personally, I tend to watch the behaviour of drivers and let the tailgaters get in front. It slows me down, I could probably say they are "jumping the queue" but better and safer that they are in front of me than behind.

No, I can't vouch for the behaviour of all bikers and neither have I tried to. I have agreed on several occasions that many do stupid things, I'm speaking from my experience, but do get fed up with the attitude that "all" bikers are like x,y,z. I'm treated like a scape-goat on here because I try to explain why bikes for example move around on the road more than cars, and why filtering is often the safest option for a bike, but many people don't want to understand why it is necessary to ride a bike differently to how you drive a car (you wouldn't expect a bus or a HGV to use the road the same as a car, either for different reasons).

By headlights, I meant many motorcycles have very bright and high set headlamps that are blinding, both coming towards you and in the rear view mirror.
I get you need to be seen but not at the expense of blinding the car drivers.
Cyclists seem to have adopted extra bright lights too that they wear on their heads, which if you meet them on a country road are quite distracting.

Fuctifino

Most motorcycles you can't turn the headlights off. They are set to be on all the time. Not sure why you feel blinded, it's no different to a Volvo which also had headlights on all the time

We live next door to an extended family including two serious bikers (one does 20,000+ miles a year, the other lectures in motorcycle maintenance at the local college; between them they have a business doing up and mending motorbikes).

We live near a motorbike event venue - near enough to get stuck on our road by event traffic on race days - and it and we are just off one of the major Land's End to John O'Groats routes.

We see a lot of bikes and bikers. The ones we like wear hi-vis over their ugly but technical leathers; the ones we don't like wear thin matching leathers ("power ranger suits"). The ones we like use winter tyres in winter; the ones we don't like use the same tyres on the track and on the road all year round.

The ones we like use their bikes as a means of transport, going to work or the shops, or visiting people; the ones we don't like wait for a sunny day and use their bike to show off with.

The ones we like know the limits of the bikes they are on, and the road they're on ... and if they don't then they slow down; the ones we don't slip stream lorries (too far forward for the trucker's mirrors to cover them) and overtake on the wrong side of the road at 150% of the speed limit.

The bikers next door are regarded with some disdain by the naice old ladies on the rest of the cul de sac. They are hands down the best neighbours we've ever had.

-As for your question, I expect that if you try to queue jump - which is what 'filtering' is, it's going past slower moving vehicles because you don't want to wait in turn, like those who can't fit in the smaller space have to - then you lose the 'right' to then push back in when you fancy it. As it happens, I always let bikers back in, because I'm not a twat. They are, though, for zooming past then pulling back into a space I've left for safety reasons, thereby making me brake to reestablish that space. So the bike gets to a) queue jump, b) pull in whenever and wherever suits and c) slow down the queue further. Think Bike? Yeah. I know what I think-

Humpty, I'm sure overtaking could also been seen as 'jumping the queue', and yet it is a perfectly safe (when conditions are appropriate) and legal manoeuvre and many many car drivers and motorcyclists do it. Including you, I'm assuming. Why is overtaking ok but filtering isn't? As has been pointed out upthread, a motorbiker should only be filtering in slow or stationary traffic so there should really be no need for you to brake harshly. Bikes are smaller than cars for a reason and there are advantages and disadvantages to this, one of the advantages being that you can fit into smaller spaces than cars can and can therefore filter in traffic. If you like that ability to 'zoom' past traffic so much, get a bike and you'll be able to do it too

Shiny - overtaking isn't done (normally) in queuing or stationary traffic. That's the difference. If there's a queue, it means you have to wait. Or, if you want to jump that queue, fine, but then why do you want to enshrine the right to push back in in some kind of sacred law? Having your cake and eating it, I feel.

I'm a London commuter. If there's a queue for the stairs, lifts or escalators at rush hour on the Tube, the people who are somehow too important to wait in said queue, who see a gap and push past others who are waiting patiently do not then get to rejoin the queue further along. In fact, they get frozen out. It's the same principle. Either you're a road user like everyone else, which means waiting like everyone else, or you're not.

(Incidentally, in that example, if there are people walking slower than you up/down to your train BUT no queue, overtaking is perfectly normal and allowable. See the difference?)

And no, I have too many friends who are doctors to ever ever ever want to ride a motorbike, thanks!

Londoner. THAT explains things.

Not everywhere is like London, thank God, not all roads and traffic conditions are like those in London and not all bikers live in London , though I still don't understand how or why anyone would brake sharpely in stationary traffic.

Filtering is legal, if you don't like the laws, start a petition to get them changed. Good luck with that.

If a bus wants to pull back into the traffic is that also "pushing in", or is that different because a bus is bigger? In which case, is the only differential how much damage said vehicle will cause to your car?

How about horses on the road? They slow everyone down, but we (at least outside London) slow down for them, because the riders are more vulnerable than the rest of the traffic. So, by the logic of being huffy about anything which slows you down, should we not care about horse riders (there are many more of them in these parts than there are motorbikes) even though they are more vulnerable (whilst perhaps complaining that they are bringing danger on themselves by simply being there), or should we respect the fact they are vulnerable and take extra care? Horses also don't treat the roads as car drivers do. Horse manure is perilious to bikers, too. Perhaps horse riders should change the way they use the road to be more like cars.

If bikes should behave more like cars, so should other non-car transportation on the road, equality and all that. Except that would be ridiculous. So, perhaps rather than showing ignorance as to how and why bikes use the road as they do, it would be better to educate yourself and become more considerate as a driver. Much easier to blame pesky bikers though.

Further, whilst most car drivers bleat how bikers should, "think car", they forget, most bikers are also car drivers. We know how the road looks like from inside a cage car, but most car drivers do not have a clue about how the same roads look like from a bike and neither do they care, so long as we don't make a mess of the front bumper when they run us off the road!

I just wish more bikers were aware of blinds spots in cars. One of my cars is a very large 4X4 Ute with a big built in canopy on the back. I seem to constantly have bikers sit in that blind spot then hit the accelerator when the lights change and I get a real fright seeing them appear out of nowhere. If they came forward in front of me out of the blind spot then at least I would know they were there.

I feel blinded salene because the lights aren't discreet. They are bright and don't seem to be dipped a la Volvo and other cars that are now adopting 'day' lights.
Apart from the new Clio's, their grille lights are unnecessarily dazzling.

Apparently,
'Motorcyclists represent 1% of traffic yet account for up to 20% of the deaths and serious injuries on our roads. Motorcyclists involved in accidents are 40 times more likely to be killed than car drivers."

I don't understand why you would want submit yourself to this.

I live in a rural area and would say that around 80% of bikers I see are moving well in excess of the speed limit (both on rural roads and through villages), often see bikers take truely insane risks, and inflict their really excessive noise their bikes make on everyone they are near, whilst wearing ear-defenders under their helmets.

I've had the misfortune to witness two fatal road accidents, both caused by bikers (who were among the dead in both cases - I'd not wish that on anyone). The first one, the biker came over a blind summit way way too fast, (just after the 60mph limit changed to a 30mph zone), and went into the back of a car queing at a junction, killing himself and the child in the rear of the car. The second misjudged a bend, came off his bike, and hit a tree with his head.

I think bikers should wear something at least slightly colourful if their bike is black/dark along with their leathers. The other day I didn't notice a bike straight away as he was quite far away when I looked but right in front of a black car. I only noticed him/her when I did my second check ready to go. They were going faster than the car so there wasn't time for me to safely pull out. It gave me a fright.

I was once behind a motorbike that was swiped off by a car turning right assuming she had right of way over both of us. Luckily he only broke his leg. Everyone has a duty to use the roads safely, not just bikers.

Anyone can drive like a twat, regardless of vehicle.

I always always check my blind spot and pass cyclists and motorbikes/scooters wide and slowly, if I need to!

Further, bikes have no reverse gear - keeping moving is often the only protection you have when a driver suddenly throws his car into reverse in a queue

Confused by this. I've never suddenly "thrown my car into reverse in a queue" and I've never seen anyone else do it either. I've seen the odd u-turn when a queue has been very long and it's easier to turn round, but people don't just start reversing back unless they are blocking a side road/entrance and need to make a space for someone turning in. Which of course as a biker you would see as you are aware of your surroundings so you would move too.

For me, the question with bikes and cycles is where lawful filtering ends and unlawful undertaking begins.

Years ago a work colleague said to me that every accident between a biker and a driver was the driver's fault. I'm not so sure about that!

I've seen a driver nearly reverse into a motorbike -although not in a queue of traffic , on a pretty quiet road in a touristy area.

Driver stopped in middle of road, near scenic beauty spot, forcing the motorbike behind him to stop too.
Driver started reversing to get a better look - straight at the motorbike.
He stopped reversing when pedestrians started yelling "stop!" at him.
He looked utterly bewildered and claimed the motorbike had "come out of nowhere". Not true. The motorbike had been there all along and would have been clearly visible of the driver had bothered checking his rear view mirror or looking behind him.

Motorbike couldn't overtake this car because of traffic on the other side of the road.

Our biker NDN had a serious accident once when a vehicle pulled out from a side road without looking - even though he wasn't going at great speed, the manoeuvres he had to perform to avoid smashing into her meant his bike went over and he was injured.

Fucking mobility scooter.

He took a lot of banter about that. But he wasn't about to ram into it to prove a point, even though she was completely in the wrong.

And that's just it. Right and wrong are completely irrelevant when F=ma comes into play.

I had a biker just today, after approaching me from behind at way over the speed limit, trying to squeeze past me on the fastest lane. Between me and a concrete separator with a very narrow gap.

I decided it was safer for him not to facilitate and not leave him room to pass.