To ask what people did before formula?

[Annabelleinapickle]

There's always a BF/FF debate but genuinely what did we do before formula existed? It worked fine then, people produced milk? Personally I think it's all the devices, unhealthy crap invented that has made our bodies less able.

Doesn't it depend on what is considered breastfeeding?
Is it exclusive breast feeding or some form of breastfeeding?

Lavender and in this situation you should have been given support from HCP or if, for example, you lived in a place where formula is prescription-only, possibly been given a prescription for it.

It is women's choice how they feed their babies and should not be made to feel guilty either way. However formula companies are profit driven not philanthropic. If formula feeding is truly chosen then all well and good but I've had to debrief many women who found this 'easier' path regrettable in time.

I breastfed DD1 to about 7.5 months only because I'm lazy and did find it the easiest option. If I found it at all hard and formula was easier I'd have done that. When DD2 got to 3 months old I introduced formula as that was easier with two kids then and other people being able to help with feeding.

"It's easy; you're not trying; norwegian women manage it; you don't really care about what's best for your baby"

Why are you misquoting me and distorting what I'm saying?

I've not said breastfeeding is easy for anyone.

I've just said that most women in Norway are still breastfeeding at 6 months, and suggested that this isn't the case because they are compelled to keep breastfeeding in the face of problems that appear to stop women breastfeeding here.

Minifingerz, more empathy in your posts and less preachy, please. And fewer stats. You are talking to real mums, many of whom have had/are having difficult experiences.

Advocate - thanks for telling me that formula manufacturers operate on a profit basis. I would never have known because I lost my ability to analyse and see through marketing bull the moment I became pregnant.

But lavender having witnessed first hand their tactics on the vulnerable I cannot help get incensed by their pursuit of this. Apologies, I was not implying your choice was anything other than informed.

"Fewer stats" I can hardly believe anyone wants less data. We could certainly invent threads where no one will say they regard breastfeeding is better and those upset by those of us who support breastfeeding could ensure those are the only breastfeeding threads they go on - like safe spaces in universities to ensure feelings aren't hurt (and people's views are never challenged and they are never given facts to make decisions).

"Is it exclusive breast feeding or some form of breastfeeding?"

Those figures are for any breastfeeding. The number of exclusively breastfed babies at 6 months in the UK is lower than 1%.

Exclusive breastfeeding rates at 16 weeks:

Australia 48%
Sweden 55%
USA 28%
UK 5%

You can see that the UK is in a league of its own when it comes to breastfeeding. (or not breastfeeding).

The problem Jamie has is similar to what minifingers is doing really. He didn't properly appreciate women's emotional experience and the impact that has on their mental wellbeing.

I think saying that 95% of women are capable of breastfeeding misses a very important point. That I assume is physical capable. But at what cost to their mental wellbeing? If there is an alternative which means that women can consider their mental health. There are lots of things we can do to support that, but we need to at least acknowledge that mental health is part of the equation rather than suggesting that women are weak / lazy / looking for the easy alternative.

I imagine generally people had bigger families, and lived closer together so it was not uncommon for other women in the family to breastfeed each others children.

My Grandmother had problems feeding my mother in 1941 so she was advised to give goats milk.

The last thing a vulnerable person needs is stats about what a failure they are. Lies. Damned lies and statistics and all that. I just wish that some posters could see that we all agree breastfeeding is best and don't need stats to convince us when the going is tough. We need support not academic papers.

I don't see what bloody business it is of anyone else's how women feed their babies, just another stick to beat women with. Formula is clearly a good alternative, infants are largely being well-fed and nourished in this country.

Stop beating up women who are doing a good job.

And fewer stats. You are talking to real mums, many of whom have had/are having difficult experiences."

Thread police?

No - the stats are useful and important.

Someone needs to point out that - the way breastfeeding is done or not done in the UK - it doesn't need to be like that, and it's not like that in other countries.

I'm amazed that, despite the outpouring of sympathy, so few people are asking the question: WHY? WHY is it so hard specifically for UK mothers to breastfeed?

If you don't ask what's stopping UK mums breastfeeding in disproportionately high numbers, then surely you're never going to make things better?

Or maybe people want women to continue to stop breastfeeding in the UK in huge numbers because misery likes company ?

I do feel sorry for people who have struggled and had a lot of grief over breastfeeding. I've struggled myself and have seen the sadness my friends and family have gone through with feeding their babies. The thing is though, I'm more interested in the WHY and the HOW and the WHAT (can we do about it) than the back rubbing. There are literally thousands of mothers who post on these threads who are happy to share their experiences of breastfeeding problems in a sisterly way, to say 'it doesn't matter if you don't breastfeed'! and 'You did your best'! Do we all need to be constantly reiterating the same thing just to indicate that we're not jackbooting lactivists? Regardless of the purpose of the thread - whether it's a support thread or just a general thread about the wider aspects of infant feeding?

Yes you do.

"I don't see what bloody business it is of anyone else's how women feed their babies"

Some people are interested in ALL children having optimal nutrition, including infants. They consider it a health issue. The NHS does, as does the WHO and all other major health bodies.

Obviously that doesn't mean individuals have a right to offer their opinion as to how you personally choose to feed your baby. But then this thread isn't about you or your feeding choices. It's a discussion thread about how babies were fed before formula was invented. Most threads about infant feeding on mumsnet are general discussion threads, and not about individual people's feeding decisions.

Elendon- 'Pre industrialisation,everyone shared the feeding of an infant, but the death of babies then was much more tied up with the death of their mothers post parturition, due to the intervention of male doctors on the scene.'

thats a seriously, poorly researched and ahistorical comment, but you just keep on pushing that naturalistic fallacy agenda...
there was no golden age of excellent midwifery which was destroyed by evil male medics. There was a general ignorance on BOTH sides in medicine and traditional midwifery, of physiology, hygiene and a complete lack of effective methods to help many conditions, that today in a western country with a modern medical and midwifery system pose less and less threat to life eg preeclampsia, haemorrhage, preavia, malpresesntation, obstructed labour

for anyone interested in looking into it, this is one of the most fascinating books Ive read in many years and its free online, though its sometimes heavy going and possibly upsetting due to descriptions of the management of stillbirths and procedures carried out to save the life of the mother once the baby had died. Its written by a doctor, an accoucheur who worked with midwives and would be called in to assist if the birth went beyond their ability to manage: it minutely describes cases that might be seen today eg eclampsia, transverse lie, sepsis and haemorrhage: the difference being of course that in those days they could do very little about it all and would have to watch the patient suffer and often die

www.archive.org/stream/observationsinmi00will/observationsinmi00will_djvu.txt

Ask mnhq to set up an "academic discussion " topic. Then the vulnerable won't trip over the academic (or vice versa ).

This is not a personal discussion about the OP's situation. This is very clearly a historical and theoretical discussion. If you can't throw around stats here then where can you? Any thread on MN is liable to have people challenging for references and numbers and reminding us that TPOAIND - it's part of the site's USP.

This is also obviously a thread that is going to be full of incredibly distressing stories of babies starving to death because their mothers couldn't feed them, so I would hope that any mother feeling vulnerable and struggling with breast feeding issues would stay well clear, and certainly wouldn't have got this far down the thread.

The op expressed her personal difficulties with bf. Others mentioned personal or family experiences. And others put stats in. My apologies if the personal stuff resonated with me and the rehash of the same old lectures did not.

Washed iris, the nhs is very bothered about breastfeeding figures. It formed part of performance targets for hcps in my area.

That's the thing: targets, preaching but no support.