To ask what people did before formula?

[Annabelleinapickle]

There's always a BF/FF debate but genuinely what did we do before formula existed? It worked fine then, people produced milk? Personally I think it's all the devices, unhealthy crap invented that has made our bodies less able.

My aunt was fed on goats milk as a newborn. My Gran was very ill after her birth. Both survived, pre antibiotics.

Jane Autens mum breast fed her, which was unusual for a woman of her standing and Jane was the only child she breastfed. It didn't stop her from sending Jane to the village from 9 months onwards to be raised until she could speak. Her parents visited her regularly.

Children did die due to lack of being fed during the industrialisation age, but this was because they were placed in the care of women who would give them narcotics which made them sleep and suppressed the suckling motion babies are born with. So mum's would rush home from a ten hour shift to find their precious child would not feed. She needed sleep and sustenance as well.

Pre industrialisation,everyone shared the feeding of an infant, but the death of babies then was much more tied up with the death of their mothers post parturition, due to the intervention of male doctors on the scene.

Did you see JO talking about the sugar tax and the government's obesity policy on C4 news? Like a Tory party political broadcast, urgh fuck right off. At best bloody naive if he think that money will materialise any time soon.

"rather than formula being available making people 'lazy'?"

I didn't say this. I never used the word 'lazy' or implied it.

"What do you suggest, mini, a programme of eugenics to correct this?"

Yes of course.

Any woman who has mammary glands can breast feed, no matter what her age. You don't need to have been pregnant to do it.

So touched by all the empathy and avoidance of sweeping generalisations on this thread. We are so good at discussing this topic and never veer off towards unsympathetic bullshit to prove a point.

For the avoidance of doubt, I did breastfeed successfully my third child. But I mixed fed on the first and the second. Couldn't of cared less.

Please never beat yourself up if breastfeeding doesn't work. It's not worth it.

They will grow up to be lovely x

My aunt was fed on goat's milk. She developed fine.

AFAIR, it's better than cow's milk and more similar to human milk.

She was a fifth child, so my grandmother had clearly been able to feed babies before and would know how to do it too.

"He wasn't promoting bf.
He was being a goady ill informed fucker"

Why would he do that?

He's got a platform to talk about the link between nutrition and health and he's spent the last decade talking about optimal nutrition for children. Why shouldn't he also use his position to do this for infants as well?

Mostly because he told women that breastfeeding was easy.

"if you don't give a shit about her emotional wellbeing"

80% of mums in Norway are breastfeeding at 6 months compared to 25% of UK mums.

I'm sure people give a shit about the well being of women in Norway, wouldn't you say?

If he'd said 'we need much more support for bf mum that is non - preachy; it went well for us but I know it doesn't for many others' I would have said he wasn't a goady fecker. But he didn't. So he is.

Would it be completely beyond the bounds of possibility that he meant 'convenient'?

Do you also think that the avalanche of spite and abuse he's received in response is proportionate?

Are you unhappy that he effectively said 'breastfeeding is good for babies' and 'we should have more breastfeeding'?

Or is it just the 'breastfeeding is easy' question which has made you feel deranged with anger?

The avalanche of "get better informed before you pick on the vulnerable " is appropriate. And doesn't compare to the avalanche of "It's easy; you're not trying; norwegian women manage it; you don't really care about what's best for your baby".

I suspect the difference in breastfeeding rates between countries has more to do with the length of paid maternity leave.

I introduced formula because I returned to work at 16 weeks, and was lucky to get 100% full pay until then.
Norway gets at least 36 weeks full pay.

Personal insults to other posters. Always a nice touch.

I like deranged with anger.
It's a nice corollary to a pointless post.

BTW, if anyone is interested in knowing more about the history of feeding, this is a really interesting book.

The chapter 'Markets are not created by God' is particularly interesting. Apparently Nestle were still marketing their condensed milk as a food for infants as late as 1976!

It also explains how incredibly fast breastfeeding rates fell in some countries during the early days of the formula revolution. By 1967 only 25% of American babies were breastfeeding when they left hospital.

Now you say it I do remember being hypnotised by formula manufacturers when I was stuck in the house on my own with no show hv s, screaming baby losing too much weight (even by ebf stats) and painful stitches.

As already said, wet nurses, friends/family and of course you know why goats are often called 'nanny goats'.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Cuban_Wet_Nurse_-_Curt_Teich_1903.jpg

Milk from other animals was also used, donkeys' were a favorite

Because it was so easy, lavender?

I breastfed well most of the time, but in the first few weeks the first few minutes were hell.

But if Oliver says it's easy, then it must be.

My babies probably would have died then. I have PCOS which means I didn't develop enough mammary tissue/glands to sustain healthy growth. It kills me. Horrid evil condition that effects so much of my life.

I think it has something to do with our working hours and mat leave here maybe?

I work from home, dh has a good job and got two weeks off paid with me. I had time to get dd's latch right, take hours cluster feeding her, and I'm sill doing it now because I can go back to work when I like.

Dh's cousin was on her own when she had her ds, she tried breastfeeding at first buy gave it up after 3 weeks because she didn't have any support from family nearby, she was just too tired to do it. Plus she has to go back to work after 16 weeks so she needed family to able to feed him.

I was more relaxed about breastfeeding because I didn't have much else to worry about. But for her it was yet another thing on her plate to fret over.

Its a very personal thing. Yes breast milk is great and it would be good fir more babies to be breastfed, but I would be better if more mums felt more confident about breastfeeding their babies.

I'm so sorry you have had a tough time, Frazzle.

"get better informed before you pick on the vulnerable "

He didn't pick on anyone. He said something that could be taken (if you look at it one way) of ignorant of the real state of affairs (that many women find breastfeeding hard), but he said nothing cruel or insulting about women who don't breastfeed.

"I suspect the difference in breastfeeding rates between countries has more to do with the length of paid maternity leave."

That's not a reason that the DOH Infant Feeding Survey shows is often given as a reason for stopping breastfeeding. In any case, most women take six months off in the UK, and most women who want to breastfeed in the longer term continue after they return to work. In the UK breastfeeding rates drop off severely within weeks of birth, not months.

And the lowest breastfeeding rates in the UK are in women who have never worked.

Internationally there doesn't seem to be a massive link between length of paid maternity leave and duration of breastfeeding. Australian women get less statutory maternity leave than we do here but double the numbers are breastfeeding at 6 months. Americans get none, but almost double the numbers are breastfeeding at 6 months as UK mothers.