To ask what people did before formula?

[Annabelleinapickle]

There's always a BF/FF debate but genuinely what did we do before formula existed? It worked fine then, people produced milk? Personally I think it's all the devices, unhealthy crap invented that has made our bodies less able.

Volunteer peer supporters iris. Midwives/health visitors have the remit but sadly not the time to properly support.

Before formula, babies who had difficulty feeding/gaining weight were fed on what was available at the time. After the war nursery nurses were taught to make up feeds using 'National Dried', cows' milk and evaporated milk. This was supplemented with fruit juice and vitamin drops.

A friend of mine is extremely milk intolerant. As a baby she was brought up in Hong Kong. The elderly lady next door to her mum told her to make up bottles using water that had been used to boil rice with some sugar added. It 'kept her going' until she was given solids at 8 weeks.

People did what they had to do and if it didn't work their babies died.

And volunteer peer support can expose you to the kind of unsupportive crap you see all to often on mn. When I was in the midst of it at its worst, I saw head of Nct on TV sneering (ok it was probably sneering from my pov) that only 2 per cent of women can't bf. The interviewer challenged her about those struggling and either from a bad attitude or poor media training she had nothing to say about this. So I thought "won't bother with them then". When you are vulnerable you are desperate for help and support and crushed when it's not there. Exchanging the same old stats on mn is all very well but spare a thought for who might be reading. I know all about the uni safe space arguments - that is not relevant on a parental support website.

To a degree I agree lavender. Peer supporters are generally those who've BF 'successfully' and arguably are ill equipped to support those struggling or need support. Of course it's a much cheaper alternative for the NHS than to invest in professional support.

mini

I've also noticed that Australia, America, Sweden etc have much higher levels of stay at home mums than the UK. I suspect there may be a link there.

I didn't come on mn at the time for fear of being judged and ridiculed. A mistake on my part but I feel that sometimes the it's easy bunch hijack threads and I want to speak out about it.

lavender

What is it that you feel would have been an ok thing to say to you at the time?

My siblings and I were all weaned onto boiled cow's milk at 4 to 6 months after early bf, no formula. DM says that was usual in 1970s but few babies were bf at all.

And that's a genuine question (peer supporter in my not huge amount of spare time)

Needs, I would have liked practical daily guidance, I would have liked to be told I was doing a good job; I would have liked to have been given the option of mixed feeding when it started getting very difficult.
Turns out I was actually pretty poorly and the 2 weeks I managed was heroic. At the time I felt like an utter failure.

I'm very disappointed you didn't get that, around here (before they start shutting all the centers) a BF support group happens every single weekday and phone support at the weekend.

Mixed feeding (whilst we are not meant to advocate it it should be covered when requested or is needed with tips on how to not hinder milk supply) and signposting or stating the mum needs to see a doc if they appear unwell is in the training.

I'm always a bit cautious of telling people they are doing a good job as the last person I said it to screamed at me and punched me in the face!

If you managed two weeks being as poorly as it sounds then you did do really well and I'm quite upset on your behalf that nobody told you that

In 1940 my grandmother had a stillborn girl. She pumped her breast milk every day for six months and gave it to a maternity unit, they passed it on to mothers who couldn't breast feed or were struggling to make enough. Someone came to her house to pick it up each day. My grandmother didn't work. Times have changed.

What an amazing thing to do iMog, especially given the circumstances. Your grandmother sounds like a lovely woman.

Wow, I didn't know Horlick's Malted Milk and Robinson's Patent Barley were early attempts at formula?!

(Read it in CDs link earlier)

Totally agree about the lack of support. I had good help in hospital but two weeks later when it all went wrong in the middle of the night there was no help. Nobody I knew had ever breastfed so there wasn't anyone I could ask. The only support locally was a phoneline run by volunteers that operated during limited hours, and they told me to go to a support group that was on in four days time in an area not on a bus route and was too far to walk while still healing from birth injuries. I contacted them again for some more advice a few days later and they reacted like I'd poisoned my baby when I said I'd topped up with formula when I was struggling. I felt so judged and ashamed I completely withdrew from getting any help and switched to formula feeding, which I came to really regret and I cried over my decision for months. I wish there was funding for breastfeeding specialists to do home visits. If there was decent support for one generation of women it could make such a difference to normalise breastfeeding, and there'd be experienced mothers there to help the next generation.

"I've also noticed that Australia, America, Sweden etc have much higher levels of stay at home mums than the UK. I suspect there may be a link there"

Most UK mothers stop breastfeeding LONG before they return to work (given that most have six months off). Most women who start breastfeeding have stopped within a few weeks.

In the Infant Feeding Survey 'Need to return to work' was hardly ever given as a reason for stopping breastfeeding, at least not in the first 6 months which is when the vast majority stop breastfeeding.

This is on the wall at the place I work. I often stare at it while waiting for the printer to finish. I am so grateful to science - for both gathering evidence to say bf is good, and for developing safe alternatives for those who need or want it.

mini

The point is, in the Uk women are so expected to return to work that it wouldn't necessarily factor as a reason for ceasing feeding, consciously.

Stay at home mums are afforded practically zero respect here, which is not the case in the counties you quoted as having far higher rates of breastfeeding.

I suspect there is not one sole reason why the UK has poor BF rates but as a peer supporter and a mother of 3 who struggled with her 1st and had to have support my thoughts are:

-A high cost of living (house prices) forcing people to wait until they are older to have children. Thus making it more likely the mother suffers birth trauma, CS or induction. All barriers to either mum or baby successfully BF. I had a baby naturally at 38 weeks she was so badly jaundiced she needed lights. She would have died pre-phototherapy. Her birth was straightforward and my milk came in no problem so I expressed for her. 2nd baby, Induction as s precaution at 36 weeks (totally unnecessary IMO as my health condition was not pg related but the docs were so twitchy they practically forced me). Birth was fine, baby fed beautifully but still developed jaundice and need lights. Although he was still kicking and active during therapy and did rouse for feeds. Maybe if he was allowed to go to term he would never have needed the treatment. Baby 3 went to 41 weeks, I told the hcp I wasn't being induced as my consultant for my health condition had advised and written to the OC that there should not be any of side effects requiring induction. But still because the OC didn't know enough about the condition she wanted to induce me. I said no and they gave up in the end and just monitored me fortnightly for any signs of baby distress at the hospital. Anyway baby born naturally, got jaundiced but did not need treatment. The difference between an early and late baby is unbelievable IMO. She is 6 weeks now and has been a doddle and not a battle to keep alive on Breast milk.

-Pain, in my training we are told it only hurts if the latch is wrong. Sorry but I think that is bollox, and one other peer supporter experienced this also. We challenged the tutor who then said some women have pain from nipples being stretched but shouldn't last beyond first 10secs or so of nipple being drawn in. Anyway I'm pretty pasty, thin skinned type can see my veins all over. Every child of mine has caused me pain, bleeding and agony but by about week 2 it's calming down and nipples have toughened up. I had straightforward births a bit of grinning and bearing of nipple shredding was doable, can't imagine it's that easy whilst still contending and recovering from a difficult life or death birth. But I'm not allowed to pre warn mums to be that it could hurt in case it puts women off BF. However I don't tell them "it shouldn't hurt if you doing it right," that's not true either.

• I doubt it's a coincidence that UK mothers spend 1.5 days on average in hospital postnatally, the shortest time of developed nations. At my church all the older ladies tell me they had to stay in hospital for 2 weeks and were made to BF. My MIL confirms the same, also think my own mum mentioned this too (all from different areas of the country with children born from the 50s-80s). Mum and MIL both gave up for formula once discharged mind due to pain.

-Formula culture, or pre-formula culture where the main goal is to get baby sleeping through the night. It's like a competition, everyone I have encountered with my now 6 week old has asked me, "is she good?" She is 6 weeks old how can she be bad? Why is everyone obsessed with how often my baby wakes to feed? Yes I'm on mumsnet at 2am but I seem to be functional in the day, I have a 3 yo and a 2yo as well, I have no family support. BF has been a lifesaver because getting my head around sterilising and boiling kettles and cooling water is not happening at 3am, which is when I do a range of chores.

-Culturally we are not close enough to our babies. By that I mean Baby wearing and cosleeping. Baby wearing is seen as a MC hippie, mung bean eating thing. It also means if you are busy and have perfected the art of it baby can feed whilst you crack on. Just look at primates they wear their babies I think it's natural for a baby to want to be next to mum all day long. If baby is worn then it's one less barrier, all that closeness and oxytocin being generated. And Co-sleeping, if I'm really tired I feed my baby in a dozy state whilst she lays next to me. When I had my first it was drummed into me not to cosleep. Did it anyway with a huge feeling of guilt and shame. This time round I told the midwife and HV I was cosleeping and I didn't care what they thought. Turns out they don't discourage it anymore so long as it's done safely. So I think being overly focused on SIDS when if common sense prevailed in the first place the outcome would be the same. Practically every woman I meet at the support group I go to co sleeps or has coslept whilst BF we just don't admit to HV in case we get a black mark.

-Rhesus factor, a bit off the wall maybe but many HCP have told me rhesus negative mums are more likely to have a jaundiced baby. Rhesus negative mums are more likely to have Northern Europe ancestry. Therefore some of us are more likely to have a sick baby from birth compared with a mum with say African heritage. We also have limited sunlight in this country so natural light therapy is unlikely. If baby can't feed and mum can't express then baby will need formula to flush out the bilirubin. Once baby has recovered its very hard not to feel like your milk has failed baby, you become obsessed with volume of milk consumed and you find formula more comforting. Someone up thread was talking about evolution, how the rhesus negative genetic mutation has survived this long in human history I have no idea. Especially if you take into account that pre anti-D if a rhesus negative mum had a rhesus positive baby her body would then kill off any future rhesus positive babies and result in stillbirths or seriously poorly babies being born requiring blood transfusions. Was there some kind of genetic advantage to rhesus negative thousands of years ago?

It was the health care professionals who were the overwhelming force of negativity when I tried to get bf established.

My DS had his first bottle in the arms of a midwife standing in front of me, with me sobbing and unable to take him back as I couldn't get up.

This was after them shouting at me and threatening they'd 'take my baby where I couldn't even see him' if I didn't feed him formula. Which was an hour after a consultant said we were doing fine, and had checked blood sugars, and no new test results back or changes in stats. I'm crying just thinking about it again, and DS is 5.

They actually laughed at me when I said I wanted to continue to try bf. They laughed in my face. And then they told me I would be wasting a bf counsellors time as I obviously wouldn't be bf, so they wouldn't let me book an appointment. I watched the woman next to me get bf advice whilst being denied it myself.

My H drew the curtains and stood guard whilst I used a expressing machine (bought quickly from Boots), to continue to try to get milk to come in.

Another member of staff apologized and said its because I had had a csection and the ward was so under staffed they couldn't spend any time on anyone who was highly unlikely to bf anyway. Apparently it was much easier for them if all csection people were given 4 hourly bottles and that was it.

When I was finally discharged (8 days later), he evil fuckers crowed at me 'didn't we tell you you'd end up formula feeding?'. I agreed with them as I was so scared they'd take my baby again.

I was bleeding (nipples) and in so much pain, had several bouts of thrush, but the worst pain was the damage those evil bitches did to me.

I felt completely worthless and like I was failing my baby. And too scared to do anything about it. Looking back it's clear they tipped me over the edge into PND but I dealt with it on my own as I wasn't ever going to show weakness in front of a HCP again.

By the way, through sheer bloody mindedness, I managed to get supply up enough to mix feed until he was 12 months (bf, expressing and formula top up). It was a constant struggle to get enough breast milk flowing and I wish I'd felt like I could stop earlier, but all my criteria for being a good mother were wrapped up with breast feeding because of those awful first experiences.

That's what 'NHS breast feeding support' looks like.

in my training we are told it only hurts if the latch is wrong. Sorry but I think that is bollox

Totally agree with this. I have had various midwives and a NCT BFing counsellor all tell me the same thing, then they have all looked at my latch and said 'Oh. That looks ok to me actually…well it shouldn't be hurting then.' They actually seemed quite affronted and indignant at the level of pain I said I was in and the obvious chopped liver state of my nipples, given that they couldn't offer me a sensible explanation for it. With one or two of them it was almost as if they thought I was doing it on purpose just to be difficult.

We challenged the tutor who then said some women have pain from nipples being stretched but shouldn't last beyond first 10secs or so of nipple being drawn in.

People making statements like this make me laugh when it flies in the face of what some women's actual experience is. Who makes these rules and laws about what 'should' and 'shouldn't' happen and how many seconds something will only hurt for?! The simple fact is that once your nipples are shredded to fuck it is always going to hurt until they are properly healed, and they are not going to heal while you have to keep feeding on them. You don't have to be a genius to work that one out.

That's very sad, Miscellaneous
Great thread. I feel that the incessant "are they sleeping through the night?" questions would make even a happy breastfeeder wonder if formula is the magic bullet and that all other babies are sleeping loads.
Also, even people I really like drive me mad with their "Ho ho, you'll soon stop when the teeth come! " (similarly about babywearing. "Wait till they get heavier!")

Similar experience here Tippy. Everyone who looked at my latch told me it all looked fine so it didn't make sense for me to be experiencing so much pain. There is always this sense of affront with BF support staff, this sense that if you are in pain You Are Doing It Wrong. Instead of accepting that different women have different experiences of BF. It's most definitely not a one-size-fits-all experience and you would think that BF support workers above all people would appreciate that.

Second time round with my daughter I went against all advice and used shields. It saved the whole BF experience for me and got BF established with my daughter and I went on to BF her for 13 months. According to the lactation counselor though shields are the work of Satan as they affect supply. As I figured out later, however, I actually had oversupply anyway so the shields helped with that and with the issue of me having a very powerful let-down that was choking my daughter. I figured that all out myself by trial and error and reading kellymom etc. Would have been nice to meet a lactation counselor who was doing something other than reading from a script....

I remember reading an old book that said if you didn't have a relative to help then goats milk or failing that cows milk with sugar.

There are tribes living today that have a system of breastfeeding where all the babies are fed (and sometimes animals) by all the lactating women. So there is less of an each to their own culture. Perhaps in medevil times poorer women would have had community support from other mothers. Births were considered social events where lots of women attended.

I remember seeing a program where one woman in an African country (don't remember which one) was giving her twina a type of porridge because her milk supply wasn't enough.

What we also forget is childbirth killed many women and for the infants that survived it would have been the relatives that were making up whatever they could to keep the baby alive.

Modern formula IS modified cows milk so formula has been around as long as cows have been domesticated, it's just that modern formula has been developed to provide better nutrition.