to think that Cultural Christianity is not a baffling concept?

[GooseberryRoolz]

I keep reading and hearing apparent bafflement about this.

It's NOT baffling is it?

I agree with vintage about your tone op.
I have never heard of this phrase before and you saying 'it's blindingly obvious' well no, no it's not too everyone.
How you don't quite get that baffles me as much as it baffles you that not everyone in the whole of the uk has heard this.
I have also never heard of cultural muslim either! Saying that didn't make it anymore obvious what you were on about.

We're in a culturally Christian country. (Most of us; I am assuming most posters are British.) Half our public holidays are based on Christian festivals.

Our art galleries are filled with art that has Christian themes (especially if they can get naked women into it, like Salomé, or Susannah - which I think is an Apocryphal story, rather than Biblical, but basically Christian; it means we are also culturally patriarchal.)

There's tons of literature with Christian themes, since before Chaucer. Even things like Larkin's the Whitsun weddings - that's a Christian festival in origin, even if it became the time when factories shut down for a break.

Villages, towns and cities will have originally had a church it cathedral at the centre, so it affects our architecture and so on. I'd expect pretty much every town to have at least one road named after a saint, usually the one from the local church.

Music, certainly classical music, includes a lot of Christianity - all those requiem masses and so on.

It's difficult to go out round much of Britain and not see something linking us to our Christian heritage, in a way we don't have with other religions, except in areas of larger cities. And mostly, because it's just there, and always has been, we don't really think about it.

Like Britain, most of Europe is culturally Christian in the same way. (Less so with countries which were behind the Iron Curtain, going by their public holidays, but even decades of communism didn't remove all traces, even if they tried.)

I don't know why it's so important to define the UK as a Christian country culturally or otherwise.

The UK has many historical influences and cultural points of interest, some of that is Christian some is not. The Church has been a remarkable economic, political and social force over the past centuries and asserted its power and control in the past 600 years and it's time to accept the complexities of our heritage beyond the established church's desires and views.

Yes the established Art and Music has been dominated by Christianity because those with money and influence was keen to be seen as good 'Christian Men'. But don't forget our astounding folk music and craft traditions.

Our laws, values and lifestyle are influenced heavily by Christianity. However a lot of Christian values have been nicked from the Jews and festivals have been nicked lock stock and barrel from pagan culture.

What are Christian values vs British values?

If you ignore the supernatural bits, then there is a lot of sense in the New Testament. Ie. Not stoning women for adultery. Only having one wife. Lots of atheists have the same values as practicing Christian. They are so heavily indoctrinated that they have absorbed these values.

There is also a lot of stuff in the New Testament (some good and some bad) that we conveniently ignore because it doesn't fit within our current culture or because the established Church found it didn't work for them.

I'm thinking chiefly about materialism and values about the rich versus the poor. The establishment in the CofE havily happily ignored a lot of Jesus' teachings on personal wealth over the centuries it just would not have worked for them to alienate their main patrons.

If we were truly a Christian country (ie following the teaching's of Christ) I'd guess we would be much more socialist.

An interesting area to consider, is how much the Church adapts to the prevalent culture it finds itself rather than the other way around. You only need o look at how the Anglical Church differs in the U.S., UK, Africa or even Northern Ireland 40 years ago.

Sorry lots of typos there. Time for bed.

I guess cultural Christianity isn't as baffling as Christianity. Never heard the term before.

I bloody love the gluttony of Christmas (for the sake of this, we'll ignore the fact that it was a pagan festival as were most of the 'traditions'). I like chocolate so don't have an issue with Easter. I guess it makes me culturally christian. I also had to go to chapel for Friday assemblies (not an especially religious school,just a very old and traditional one).

I don't hate women and gays and think that if the god from the bible was real, then he's a particularly nasty cunt who should be used as an anti-role model. Being of sound morals and having a reasonable understanding of science I'm not Christian (or religious).

'Culturally Christian' is much better than 'hypocritically Christian' so I'll use it in future when someone asks why I love Christmas but hate the nativity scene my OH puts up.

shadows "Sorry, lorelai. I guess the problem with online fora is that the tone of a conversation, and facial expressions, are lost, so messages are easily misinterpreted. "

the plural of 'forum' is 'forums'. Please don't attempt to sound cleverer than you are. It's unbecoming.

reallytired "Lots of atheists have the same values as practicing Christian. They are so heavily indoctrinated that they have absorbed these values."

But happily, lots of atheists don't have the same values as practicing Christians and are kind wonderful people. As well as that, many Christians ignore much of their indoctrination and are able to be really genuinely good people.

"Not stoning women for adultery"

But how many atheists would need to be told that not stoning someone for adultery is "a lot of sense"? Isn't it better to be a good person because you want to be than being a 'good' person because big brother is watching and there's eternal damnation waiting for you if you don't follow the rules.

I'm an ex-Catholic atheist, and I've lived pretty much all my life in countries heavily influenced by Christianity. I'd be a bit pissed off to be described as culturally christian (and even more pissed off to be described as culturally Christian). Of course I am heavily influenced by my Christian upbringing, I know lots of hymns and religious stories and have sat through shed loads of sermons so I'm sure some must have sunk in somehow. I'm happy to acknowledge that background, but as I actively reject a lot of it I don't want to be pushed into some sort of grouping, especially when the people using the term don't even seem to have a common understanding of what it means.

My children have had most of their upbringing in a secular school system and have very very little knowledge about any religion, including Christianity (much to my mother's despair). Despite living in a country that is largely Christian they certainly aren't culturally christian, at least in any meaningful sort of way. Sure they celebrate Christmas but I'd say that was largely a commercial celebration now, based more on pagan/shared human traditions than anything else.

I'd never heard the phrase before the (baffling) hot cross bun thread, but I understood what was meant.

I think that there is an implication most people in Britain are cultural Christians if we celebrate Christmas, Easter, whatever, but I don't identify as such.
I only celebrate Christmas in a very secular way. Easter in a sort of welcoming the spring sort of way, and I would never dream of getting married in a church or christening my DC. We do live in a Christian culture though, and for that there are some unavoidable traditions. Doesn't make me a Christian though, culturally or otherwise.

I don't understand the racist connection though, can someone explain?

Christmas and Easter traditions go way back beyond Christianity.
Cultural Christians, what a load of bollocks. It's called traditions and it's normal that we identify ourselves with those we grew up in.

Jewish people are an ethnic group, that's why you can be a secular Jew, without adhering to the religion of Judaism.

While people may claim to be "cultural Muslims", theologically, that's nonsensical, a Muslim is someone with a specific religious belief, that's the first pillar of Islam.

Cultural Christianity is equally untenable, as despite the many sects of Christianity, it's pretty unanimous what a Christian believes in.

Words have meanings and I don't understand people without religion wanting to use religious terms to describe themselves.

Our laws, values and lifestyle are influenced heavily by Christianity. However a lot of Christian values have been nicked from the Jews and festivals have been nicked lock stock and barrel from pagan culture.

Considering that Christianity started as a spin-off of Judaism there is a pretty logical explanation for it. Also for the pragmatic appropriation of pagan traditions.

I've never heard the term before and I think the meaning is rather less than obvious.

It could refer to anyone born and raised in a country which has broadly Christian traditions (like celebrating Christmas, and appreciating religious art and music). That's the majority of us here, I would imagine.

Or it could mean someone who overtly adopts Christian rituals and practices, like Church attendance, baptism and church weddings, without sincere religious belief but because they enjoy the ritual and tradition, or for social reasons. The latter is more common in the US where in many communities the church is at the centre of much social interaction. My non-believing East Coast colleague is a church goer for this reason.

It is NOT analogous with being a secular Jew. You can't simultaneously be a Christian and an atheist, but you can be a Jewish non-believer. My late step-father was Jewish by descent but not by his religious beliefs.

"It is NOT analogous with being a secular Jew. You can't simultaneously be a Christian and an atheist, but you can be a Jewish non-believer. My late step-father was Jewish by descent but not by his religious beliefs."

Fuck me this is an -sim - ist too far. Jewish by descent. You mean the same as Christian by descent. Can I be a non-binary religiouser? Jewish by association, Christian by descent, atheist by education, Catholic by marriage.

I'd also like to point out we all come from the same monkeys and are therefore all atheist by descent. The very idea of continuing a religious label when you're enlightened a non-believer just perpetuates this notion of 'them and us' and the atrocities committed on behalf of religion.

"My non-believing East Coast colleague is a church goer for this reason." 'Merica!

potatoes the word Jewish indicates membership of a particular ethnic group. My late FIL was born in 1930 and his family came to the UK as refugees from Nazism. He became agnostic later in life.

I think a man whose relatives died for their Jewishness has every right to consider himself Jewish regardless of his personal faith.

sorry, step father not FIL, it is very early here :-/

Atheists in the uk are culturally different to atheists in other countries. An (non vegetarian) atheist in uk us unlikely to have a problem with eating sausages. An atheist from a Muslim or a Jewish background may reject pork long after the have rejected the religion. Following particular rules have become a habit passed down through the generations.

Everyone has the "right" to consider themselves however they'd like. Not sure what you mean by right, but not especially pertinent.

Very sadly, most peoples relatives (although not as recently at The Holocaust) have died for their beliefs at some point due to their religion.

I still don't understand the difference between a cultural Christian and cultural Jew. Not trying to be argumentative. Jews may believe that they came from 'the family who crossed the river', but happily, through marrying non-Jews, the 'ethnicity' is so diluted that it isn't recognised as one according to the British government anyway.

I say happily because I very strongly believe that religion (by far the strongest) force that keeps the world divided. Most actively discourage marrying 'outside'. A friend's brother married a non-Jew. The parents were happy but disappointed. Because of this, she said she could "never marry someone who isn't Jewish after my brother upset my parents so much". Very sad.

What happens when 'diverse' parents have children? Tyson Beckford, Hally Berry, Mariah Carey, The Rock...

What happens when you keep the bloodline 'pure' and fuck each other? The Royal Family (hemophlia and Hapsburg lip)!

I also think your OP was pretty self explanatory Goose and don't understand why you are getting a kicking here.

Think Bear has explained the concept of 'cultural Christianity' pretty well just up thread but it also seems to be pretty obvious to me and I am not even of British origin myself.

Some posters, Vintage mainly, seem to be on a vendetta though... Not sure why

Jewish people (and Sikhs) were recognised as an ethnic group by the British Government for the purposes of the Race Relations Act (not sure about its 2010 replacement).

I totally get this.

I'm the kind of militant atheist who makes Richard Dawkins look moderate but I can't get away from my background. I once said a college I worked at should have the name changed to 'St Jude's' - if you have an RC background you will get the reference, if you are a Christian of another colour you might also get it.

Coincidentally I am reading a book about Belgian Jewish children who were hidden in RC convents / schools / other institutions.

When they were hidden they took on another name and learned RC prayers, some were baptised and the pressure to do so depended on where you were staying, the nuns looked upon these children as both needing a home and needing 'saving'.

After the war some continued to follow RC faith, others didn't and one group started to celebrate both RC and Jewish festivals.

I still don't understand the difference between a cultural Christian and cultural Jew. Not trying to be argumentative. Jews may believe that they came from 'the family who crossed the river', but happily, through marrying non-Jews, the 'ethnicity' is so diluted that it isn't recognised as one according to the British government anyway.

I suspect we'd agree on many aspects of this question (I am an atheist with a very negative opinion of religion), but culture and (recent) history certainly matter here. Suggesting that they don't is like suggesting that "race" doesn't exist because human beings are genetically homogenous as a species, and often very outbred.

but they aren't an ethnic 'group'.

I heard it for the first time a couple of days ago on mn. As an actual real Christian I'm not that keen on it in a very mild, turn the other cheek way, you understand. I hope you don't mind me sneering a little because it's a bit of a novelty after all the constant sneering threads on here about how awful Christianity is and how our children should be protected from it at all costs.

I understand what it means, just don't like it much.