aibu - supposedly left wing parents in London

[jimmyjoejamtoe]

Who run screaming to the home counties "because of schools?"

You know the type, having moved FROM the home counties after uni to London, then spend the rest of their twenties in London feeling smug at how "wonderfully diverse, edgy" everything is in London with a sneer at "middle England" but then...

..they go private...
...move to somewhere bland and safe...
when kids their kids arrive.

Hang on, you've changed your tune.

Aibu to feel a little peeved at these metropolitan types as they empty smugly from my area/go private?

an inner London school

I can see why you would want to move out of London, tiny expensive housing, very busy and hectic, generally expensive so not ideal for everyone to raise kids. Yes it has a lot of good schools but you get 6 choices because it's so difficult to get your child into a preferred school. We live somewhere where a lot of London parents move to, some commuting into London for work still and after they've sold their one bed London flat can buy a nice house here.

It's not just about schools. For us it was wanting more space, an outdoor lifestyle, bigger house than we could ever have afforded in London.

I don't know anyone who moved out "for the schools". They all moved out for more than a one bed shoebox and a touch of outdoor space.

I worry about the loss of that 'middle'.

You'll get no disagreement from me about that, thecatfromjapan.

Eh. People's priorities change. When I was 25 I didn't give a toss about a garden or having a nice house and was happy to sleep on a mattress on the floor and decorate my walls with home painted murals (they were awful) and was sure I was the coolest thing ever.

At 35 I wanted a garden and space and didn't want to share a room with DP and kids, and wanted a commute that wasn't 60 minutes. So we moved to Scotland. We have a house now that is more than double the space for half the price and a garden and both have 15 minute commutes into work.

I don't regret my choices in my 20s but I do regret being a twat about it. But what I wanted changed.

Yawn. Mumsnet really hates London. If people raise children here, they get accused of child abuse: 'The traffic! The crime!'. If they move out, they're hypocrites. I don't fit your stereotype because I've raised my children here and we're not going anywhere. We're fortunate that we can afford to live here because we bought our first house 20 years ago.
As others have said, the school issue is a red herring. Schools in London have improved beyond recognition and outperform the majority of the country- education advisers are looking at why this is and how other areas of the UK can learn from it. I have been through the secondary school application process twice In the last 6 years- my older 2 DCs applied to 9 schools between them and 7 of them were rated as outstanding and the other 2 as good. And they were all within 2 miles of home. My DCs have had experiences and opportunities here that they wouldn't get elsewhere. There is a crisis in school provision in London- DS2's school is on its 3rd bulge year in 5 years so clearly a lot of people do want to raise their children here.
I have 3 friends who have moved out of London since having children- not because they wanted to but because they couldn't afford to buy anywhere, not even a 2 bedroom flat, and 2 of them are doctors.

but he's the tosser buying spelt bread and spending £50k on a loft conversion, not me

I've done the move it. Essex so not really Home Counties (it's really not is it?). We did it for secondary schools. At the end of the day, it was lovely in London, but a) our area got taken over by spelt bread types and actually I feel more at home with normal, down to earth people in Essex (not to mention it is becoming very diverse as most people coming from abroad are realising London is too expensive for them. b) the secondary schools in London just are a bit scary and I have a ds with SEN, so I had to think first of his needs. Stuff idealism when it comes to your kids.

But I still vote Labour.

We have an incredible lifestyle, just one hour out of London. It's not just the schools. It's the fresh air, the space, the dream house. When I think about what our lifestyle would be like now if we'd stayed in SW16 it genuinely makes me shudder.

When I think about what our lifestyle would be like now if we'd stayed in SW16 it genuinely makes me shudder

Eh?! What makes you shudder?!

I suspect she's saying they would have been hard-pressed.

We stayed and, even though we bought years ago, our mortgage still means we have to budget very carefully.

We moved out to get a house to Iive in, as opposed to a tiny noisy flat consisting of a third or a quarter of what was once built as house for one family, and through-constructed so you're as aurally close to your neighbours as if you were one family. (We bought it which is nice; I could have accepted not buying but I couldn't accept never being able to afford to have enough space)

About the education though. I think there are some mistakes here.

• like all parents I think my dcs are ace, but I am not insane enough to think that their mere presence at a school is going to dramatically improve the lot of the other children going there. I can't see what I've deprived your (or any, children) of, by not sending my children to school with yours. I'm sure your children have 29 other children in the class, play with them in the playground, and invite them to birthday parties - just like I hope they would have done with mine if they were there. What else do you need from classmates?

• On the other hand I am not going to pretend that all schools are created equal. I think all primary schools are nicer and better than when I went to one, but all the same, I wouldn't inflict nasty conditions on my children for the sake of it. I went to primary school on a rough estate in merseyside in the 80s. Everything was broken. The toilets were literally smeared with shit, up the walls, every day; there was no loo roll or soap, not all the sinks worked, sometimes none of the taps worked. The text books were ancient, scribbled on, and one between two. There were no musical instruments and hardly any art supplies. Much of the time there was simply nothing to do in class. I can remember several times asking a teacher for something to read or something to write on because I was just waiting for something to happen and bored, and being told to sit down and carry on waiting. The people were nice, the teachers were good, but the fabric of the school was stressfully nasty and it had a very disheartening effect being accustomed to things not being available, not working, not existing, and being broken and dirty before you got to them. I do not want this for my children. It was depressing. literally.

• As I said, the teachers were well meaning and the community was friendly. The presence of more middle class children at that school wouldn't have changed anything. It was just that the fabric of the milieu was nasty .

• I think it's disrespectful to children to expect them to get used to that level of nastiness. They will of course. I did. But it's not good to be inured to that level of disrespect. So why do you object that a parent would choose differently for their child? It isn't about academic attainment (I have 3 degrees from world class universities). It's about the pleasantness or otherwise of day to day life, and what they will grow up to think they deserve.

It really depends on the local schools, and house prices. Everyone wants the best for their kids.

DH and I bought our first house in a very "gritty" and diverse area (not London, another city). Suited us wonderfully in our twenties.

When DC1 came along we quickly realised (a) local schools were shite (b) houses in catchment for good schools were well out of our price range and (c) not a chance we could ever afford private.

So we upped sticks and moved 200 miles north where we could afford a bigger, child friendly house with garden, and where local state schools both primary & secondary are very good. I don't think of us as selling out in any way.. We did the best for our DC.

Also, for all those 'oh it's SO diverse'. I lived in one of the most diverse boroughs of London until 6 months ago. Guess what? People generally kept themselves in their own little cliques. All the white middle classes together with maybe 1 or 2 others 'breaking in'. I never fitted properly as I had a lot of multinational friends and really disliked all the division I could see.

I think the adults keep more to their nationality groups / comfort zones, but the children integrate into a multicultural setting at school. My dc are mixed race so this environment reflects them to an extent in any case.

As far as the adults are concerned, IMO just living tolerantly alongside each other is great.

Stuff idealism when it comes to your kids.

The answer in eight words!

8.5 million people live in London: the vast majority of them don't fit into the stereotypes I see mentioned on any MN thread about London. I know people have different experiences, but I just don't recognise the place I hear people describing.

Where within an hour of London can you afford a dream home that is much cheaper than SW16, parrots?

Yes, I live in SW16 and very happy with it. My parents tried to persuade me to move back to Surrey until they realised Surrey was actually more expensive, not less.

I live in London. Very diverse area but similar experience to Merry.
The nice middle class dc play with other nice middle class dc...

I lived in London from 18 to over 40. Yes, we moved out because we couldn't afford to buy in London, and we couldn't manage in a 1 bed flat when dd was getting older (we left when she was 5).

We're in Devon now. It's not that I hate it, I don't. I MISS LONDON. I thought I was going to die there. I love it. I miss it. I want to go back.

If it was just about schools I'd have stayed in London. The schools where I've moved to are shit. Only we'd be raising DS in a one bedroom second floor flat and here we have a 3 bedroom house with a garden for less money. Oddly enough we'd like to do private school for secondary because DS has more chance of mixing with different cultures due to overseas students than he would at the local state school

That's exactly what we did.

Spent our twenties partying in London. When we were a family (or planning on being one), we left, swapping a tiny 2 bed flat for a 5 bed house with a garden. Priorities change. Education for the boys plus fresh air etc became more important than booze and gigs.

I've never sneered at people though (other than vegans or hipsters) and never pretended to be or been accused of being left wing. I was lucky enough to go to public school and am happy our children can; we couldn't have afforded it had we stayed in London. It seems a little strange to put political ideals above what's best for your children and while there are exceptions, public schools tend to be better than comprehensives.

I miss living in London and if we'd been able to afford a good sized house, nice size garden and a good school in London (yes, I want a house on Bishops Avenue) we'd have stayed.

ps. OP - you sound a little bitter at being 'left behind' as people move on. Would you feel the same I wonder if you had the option of moving on from your area?

When I think about what our lifestyle would be like now if we'd stayed in SW16 it genuinely makes me shudder.

No, it's okay, really! I went through the other day; Morrisons has closed down