To be worried about MILs plans

[have2nc]

MIL is 80 and lives alone. I think she suffers from depression, but her DC don't seem to feel able to discuss it with her. Her DD describes their family approach to things as 'sweep it under the carpet'. She is very isolated; won't try join groups or meet people. Gets very little exercise or fresh air. I learned recently that she uses her car now to drive one block from her house to get milk, because she gets out of breath walking that distance. She is overweight, but not massively I don't think. I never think of her in those terms but DH worries she is. I talk to DH about this but would never interfere with her DCs relationship with her.

Anyway, we live in a rural village and MIL lives in a city about 45 mins drive from us. I have a 1yr old and a 4 yr old - both born after I turned 40.

Last year I learned MIL was considering selling her city home (a ground floor property, no stairs) and buying a new build double storey home in a village maybe 5 mins from us. No one told me about this, including DH, until she was viewing plans and 'deciding '. Apparently she'd like to live near a field and not a street.

I panicked. I have a number of concerns. Many of them selfish which is why I'm not sure if IABU.

First, she's 80 and I think stairs are an issue. Even DH and she see this as temporary before she moves into her 'old age' type home where she'll get more support. Problem is, I think she's at that 'old age' age now, especially hearing she can't walk one block.

The re-sale value of the village house later won't translate into funds she can use to move back into the city later. I'm worried she'll be trapped here, next door to me.

Bus service to town is very infrequent and unreliable. I don't think she should be driving much longer. She's already hazardously slow on the road.

Nearest hospital is an hour away in a car, so 2 hour round trip. And she's 80.

And this is the selfish bit. I suspect she thinks she'll see my DCs more often. I am craving spare time. I want to re-train and start working again. I don't want to accommodate expected increase in regular visits when I'm struggling for time already and they are unavoidable when she'd be so close. I feel my freedom closing down already, and it feels bloody unfair. DH takes them to see her weekly at the moment.

DH works in town and all her family are there too. I don't want to be the point of call to check on her or give her lifts or any of the myriad things, just because I am near-by. And at her age and her health, I really expect that to happen pretty soon.

My gut feeling us her DD wants to move away, and is trying to pass care on (they are close and see each other all the time). I can't fill that gap. We're not close. FIL was toxic, and although he has died and she isn't toxic, it still affected our relationship because I kept my distance. I know she thinks I should have tolerated him regardless, and she is silently disapproving, and always always finds a way to bring me down. Whenever I'm with her I wait for the comment and almost feel relief that she's made it and hopefully it's out the way for the rest of the visit.

AIBU to want her DCs to dissuade her from this move. I feel ill about it. I feel it could really ruin my life. There. Selfish.

Mind you, and I'll just throw this in here as something to consider, if your SIL is moving away, then it's going to be hard for you dh to help out practically if she's 45 minutes away. As I said, my parents moved last summer, and are now 5 mins away from my sister. We all had concerns about this, as it would likely mean she cops for any day-to-day assistance (until we opt for some sort of care package). Her view is that it's a darn sight easier to help out on a pop-in basis than it was when they were 2 hours away, necessitating an overnight trip. And anything more major than changing a light bulb/shifting the TV 12" to the left, my brother and I take on.

(Disclaimer: I am NOT suggesting that you should be the one to provide this pop-in assistance. I'm thinking about your dh. But, if he's committed to work, then another plan has to be found - some sort of assisted living deal, maybe. But I say from experience, you might need to do a hard-sell on that one, as there can be some deep-set prejudices against it.

It really boils down to, if it isn't "call an ambulance" level of urgent, call your DH for him to pop in after work. She doesn't like you much and this feeling is mutual. Since you are not her DD and have made clear this would happen, there is no obligation. If it is really urgent, then of course, call her an ambulance.

It is really exhausting to look after someone you love, I cannot begin to imagine looking after someone you resent. The same goes for being looked after. Imagine being looked after by someone you can't stand.

Totally changing the subject, OP, but has your MIL talked to her doctor about her breathlessness? It sounds like everyone in that family lives in denial, but an 80-year-old friend of mine ended up having a triple by-pass because her arteries were clogged causing breathlessness, and, although the recovery was slow, she is now like a healthy 60 year old.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for you OP. I'm watching my parents go through something very similar with my grandparents (and I'm only a few years away from similar with my FIL). Moving them to my parent's home town was planned, but it was expected to be short term and with more support from the wider family than has materialised.

Taking a different approach, is there an opportunity for you to control the move by supporting it? If you think the motivation is your MIL's desire to live in a naice village rather than it's proximity to you, could you persuade a move to somewhere desirable but with appropriate accommodation and support?

The biggest mistake my parents made (in their own words) was moving my 80 year old grandparents into a retirement apartment with a building manager. 14 years later they need much more support than that but the upheaval of moving them again would be too great.

If you MIL was cosilly installed in an age appropriate property in a naice village that appealed to her snobbery with the right support on site then it wouldn't have to come from you in the same way. It could solve the loneliness issue too.

I realise that the situation isn't as black and white as that, but I wonder whether you can think of an alternative scenario that would keep your MIL happy and stop the burden coming to you or your husband?

Massive sympathy for you OP.

Can I just say to the people who have said "she is 80, so the situation won't last for very long", a friend of mine went through a very similar thing and her mother-in-law lived to be 96! The stress on my friend and her DH was horrendous; even after MIL died, friend's DH suffered from terrible guilt and depression (he felt that he should have done more for her). It is probably fair to say that their lives were made absolute hell for years by his mother, so speak up now OP, as loudly as you can, before you are sucked into this.

Exactly, plenty of people live well into their 90s. Not unusual these days. You really can't assume that an 80 year old won't live much longer, even one who's starting to experience physical decline. If OP is about 45 or 46 and DH a couple of years older, MIL could plausibly be around until they're approaching pensionable age themselves.

Quite apart from practical things that need to be done for an elderly person - driving them to hospital appointments etc - there is a huge amount of emotional support required. This need is particularly great if there aren't other family members or friends around. (The situation also changes as on older person ages because contemporaries start to die off.)

It is harder limiting phone calls and visits when you know a person is indoors all day, on their own and not speaking to another living soul.

It's also very difficult when a person fiercely resists changes that are in their own interest. (In my father-in-law's case, it was very hard work persuading him to move to sheltered accommodation. Later on it was equally hard for him to accept that he might benefit from a carer coming in, in the morning.) Memory problems increase the difficulties as what has been agreed one day eo;; be forgotten the next.

Our current situation is that my partner is now retired. This means it's easier for him to drop in on his father. On the other hand my partner was anticipating retirement as a time of freedom - when the two of us could travel more. The reality is every time we go away, we have to get my husband's brother to be on standby - and are always nervous that my father-in-law will, for example, have a falll the day before we're due to travel.

Essentially ageing is a hard road. If the older person and their children are all in denial of one kind or another, it is harder still.

The key to ageing gracefully is anticipating each decline in function, not reacting after the fact. This is what you need to discuss with her family.
She needs to move into sheltered accommodate before she can't deal without it, not after she needs it.
A two storey property is madness. She needs warden controlled housing. Even if she doesn't need it right now - honestly I know of what I speak. My family have been through all this and the person involved lived to 95!
You need to phrase the argument in two ways:

1. What you can and cannot do
2. What's best for her

So no, no granny annexe. Put that right off the table NOW because I guarantee you that's what they're thinking.
Suggest a full work up at the GP. My 'in' here would be concern over breathlessness- say something like 'oh yes my friends mum had that, you know it was something really simple, can't remember what but she had a full checkup at the GP- gave her some vitamins or something and she's right as rain now. Why don't you get a full checkup? Never harms, I should probably get one too..," then contact GP and express concerns over driving and dementia
You need to keep your boundaries and you need to frame all arguments in terms of 'this is best for mil "

It's tough...

Have you been to extra care facilities? Some are eye-wateringly expensive and very exclusive. They are about a million miles away from the old image of the two-room prefab bungalow for the elderly. They're more like a luxury hotel, in fact.

Sounds like it would be right up her street, to be honest - socially, as well as practically.

Agreed, sounds like the whole family are in denial. Your MIL needs someone to get her to really think about how she will cope with moving from a city to a village and being miles away from friends and hospital without a car - she won't be able to keep driving forever .... My MIL initially insisted she wanted to move to a bungalow BUT it still had to have an upstairs bedroom - madness! .... It's very hard for people to accept the aging process and they sometimes blank out the bits they can't bear to think about, and so do their children. My MIL did move closer to us, which was better than the increasingly frequent 'emergency calls' requiring a 4 hour return drive just to run in and change the lightbulb. As I worked part-time, and the other DCs either lived abroad or travelled a lot, or worked long, I had to be very clear about the boundaries, but of course I ended up doing the unanticipated stuff as she was only 10 mins round the corner. Her DCs did step up though, and managed most of the planned stuff like hospital visits (and optician, dentist, chiropodist, hearing centre, GP, physiotherapy etc etc). However, it was the emotional stuff that was so hard. She didn't want to be on her own. But then she wouldn't eat after 6pm at night so impossible to even co-ordinate meals when we were working. At 80 she hadn't experienced the long working hours both men and women have these days, and was clueless. We began by her moving in with us for 6 months so she could find somewhere to live (otherwise we were exhausting ourselves going to collect her every weekend to look at property) so you are in some ways lucky she is starting to look for herself, but I do think that on another level she's just angling to get her DCs involved in finding a more suitable property or somehow making her feel she is being looked after. From experience, step 1 is to stop her driving before she harms someone. Step 2 is trying to get her involved in working out how she can manage if she did move to X village without a car. Then have a family conference and be sure they will form a rota so you are able to go on holiday without the fear of having to cancel or rush home (it won't be covered by insurance I can promise you). Very stressed old ladies may look like they have dementia when they are either ill or under stress, so don't make too many assumptions and if you think she really has early dementia then find some way to get her to her GP for an assessment as it could seriously affect everyones plans - and that says it all, if it falls to you to do that sort of thinking than the family just aren't taking it on....It's not your Mum, you will not be the one able to make decisions, so look after yourself, and make sure you are not the one doing all the work and taking all the responsibility just because you are on the spot. Maybe it's time to suggest you get a full time job and get hubby to consider part-time work?

my in laws do this: don't talk about a problem / plan that involves lots of work from me so that i can't object, it'll just happen. no discussion. they'll decide, and then do it. and i'll look majorly unreasonable if i refuse to step up.

it's an awful way to go about things. you basically get strong armed into things. you have to force the discussion i'm afraid, and it won't be easy and emotions will run high. but you have to do it if not for you, then your family because they will ultimately suffer.

One thing that hasn't been flagged up is that if she does have dementia - and the forgetting about a serious illness by someone in the family circle is a major red flag - she will find it very very hard to adapt to relocating.

Familiar structures and routines will help people keep going a lot longer.

She'll get lost. She won't be able to find things. She will not be able to change and adapt. She will get distressed and frustrated and angry. Making new friendships will be difficult. (Many people will withdraw from social relationships because of associated and/or depression or fear of exposing themselves as confused/forgetful.)

Quite agree with others that it is one thing saying you won't be involved, but quite another refusing to help when your mil has a crisis, however minor. Or, indeed, knowing that they are alone day after day and also what to do about them if you go on holiday etc. It's all very well people saying the dh should handle things, but if the OP is on the spot she can hardly sit there in her house if the mil needs to get to a hospital appointment. It will end up impacting very badly on the OP's marriage.

The only course of action is to INSIST that the mil goes into sheltered accommodation. Better a row now with the dh and other family members than to stick head in the sand and know that all the anticipated fears are going to come true and OP will end up miserable and brow-beaten into an unfair arrangement.

Okay, I'm probably projecting here, but your dh and his family need to understand the reality of this. My mother (note: not MIL) is now in very sheltered accommodation that provides, meals, housekeeper and a warden, having previously lived in an unsuitable house with stairs. We 'supported' (i.e. masked her difficulties) for years. Things that have now improved:

• We aren't getting called out in the small hours for things like 'a bird in the house' (smoke alarm battery was low) and 'a strange bright light' (security lights of the business across the road, that had always been there)
• I no longer have to run away from my dds' long-practised-for school events because she has locked herself out.
• We no longer have to do her housework, shopping, cooking and washing. She refused any outside help, so it was that or have her descend into squalor.
• When she breaks the toilet (a regular occurrence) or a light bulb needs replacing, etc, a handyperson is arranged immediately.
• We don't have that constant worry that she's lying at the foot of the stairs or has set the place on fire. Refused to wear an alarm.
• She has regular checks throughout the day, so when she doesn't hear the phone we know she's OK and we don't have to drive round there (see the stairs point above).
• Generally we don't have to live our lives on tenterhooks, worrying about her all the time. It just lives at the back of your mind.

All those things above are coming to you and your dh, if she carries on with this plan. She may not be like that now, but it will most likely happen eventually. And even if she is in sheltered accommodation, there will still be plenty to do, believe me. She'll need transport, she'll need taking to medical and other appointments. Carers (when the need arises) to co-ordinate, medication to keep an eye on, her forms/finances/admin to be done. Plus, of course, company, outings, contact with her family.

My dsis and I can now manage to keep on top of those things, since the others are taken care of. Dsis is in her 60s with poor health, and I've spent fifteen years doing all the above (she's only been in sheltered for a year) alongside bringing up my children (I didn't have my children late, but Mum had me in her 40s). That is very relevant to your situation. I've done as much as possible to minimise the effect on my dds, but my mental health has suffered terribly. I'm 46 and wrung out. My degree and previous career have been wasted. I wish I'd dug my heels in and insisted on sheltered accommodation, but my sister was upset by the idea and Mum blithely went on her own way.

You've had great advice here. You must not be steamrollered into this.

Roundandroundthehouses - really sums it up. My parents looked after my Mothers Mother - they even slept in shifts because of poor Granny liked to make herself a bit of hot milk in the night and regularly set fire to the pan.

As the DiL, you really can't INSIST that your MiL be accommodated according to your wishes, unless they're planning on her moving into your home. That really is up to her and her family. You can advise and suggest, but that's about all.

All you can do is make very clear to your DH what you will and will NOT do. So I suggest that you sit down and make a list of all the things people have mentioned on this thread of the tasks associated with caring for an increasingly elderly parent and decide what (if any) of these tasks you're willing to take on. Then present that list to your DH so he will be unmistakably clear on what his role will be. And what your role will NOT be. Maybe, just maybe it'll be enough of an eye-opener for your DH to make him think twice about that two storey house!

Roundandround Thank you. That really really sunk home. I am so sorry that has been your experience.

My DM cared for her MIL for 8 years, but in a context where she had nursing support and maids (different country, different time). Still, I remember the impact on me. I won't let that happen to my DCs.

In addition, my MIL had no qualms putting her elderly mother into an old age home, after her DSIS couldn't care for her anymore and then feuding with her DSIS over inheritance money. Which I will remind DH of.

I think this thread has really shown me that the move near by is actually only one issue. Really, the real issues are more long term and need addressing now.

I'm going to have a hard talk to DH this weekend.

Someone else said here that intelligent people can mask early dementia symptoms. I'm now realising that MIL often sits smiling blankly saying nothing in family meetings. DH thinks she can't hear, but she has a hearing aid. So I wonder if she's struggling to remember the contexts of conversations....? I'm going to watch more closely.

Thank you all so much for the advice. It's made me think hard.

I think there can be lot of clues to earlier stage dementia. Mainly about repetitive limited behaviour. I think the state of my father-in-law's flat, when we came to clear it also offered a lot of clues. He knew how to wash shirts, but woollens and table cloths were just stashed away once they got stained. Certain food stuffs got hoarded - I think he'd not been able to make shopping lists. He began only to read familiar books or watch films he'd watched before because he couldn't understand new plots. I think group conversations are a lot harder because there is a great deal more to process and the speakers don't check that everyone has understood before moving on.

Haven't read ft but bullshit is spot on .
Not quite the same situation as I was fond of MIL and she and DH had a difficult relationship, but I ended up being the one who sorted her out because I was the one who worked locally,could call in in my way home,pop in in my lunch hour to check up on her etc .I didnt resent it unduly but sometines I did feel a bit 'bloody hell shes not my mother' I lived with her for three weeks once after a fall while DD2 was going through major exams and I did mind that .
You don't sound the sort of person to ignore her needs and you will feel a moral obligation and sense of duty,believe me , whatever you and your DH agree before hand
I know many very spritely 'together'80 year olds who live independently but degeneration can happen frighteningly fast .My MIL managed fine living alone with our (my!) support until she was 90 but a fall tipped her over into full blown dementia

You have to be definite NOW that you are not taking on the role of carer.

As a separate issue, could she have asthma or COPD, hence the breathlessness? Has a doctor seen her? If she has, treatment for it might make a big difference?

Sorry, also, regarding the hearing aid, she won't be able to hear in a large group. I'm deaf and had hearing aids for years, the more background noise there is, the less use a hearing aid is. What you do is sit there feeling left out and pretending you can hear. You DH is right.

Yes - my MIL is deaf, only in her 60s and without any dementia, and she has always behaved much as you describe your MIL in group conversations. That could well be 'just' a hearing issue.

I'm more concerned about her reaction to having forgotten your DM had cancer. I'm not an expert, but the actual forgetting itself could be within normal, especially at that age, if you have other things on your mind, are a bit self-absorbed, and it's about someone you only ask about rather than being close to personally. I can't pretend I've never forgotten major things about friends' relatives and other people outside my own circle. But the outrage and blame, and the claim to never have known at all, are more worrying. Ordinarily you'd expect her to react as you or I would - I'd be mortified and apologise. But if she really did believe that she'd never been told, even when reminded, that would bother me.

(Alternatively, she did remember, but covered her embarrassment by getting cross and blaming you, by pretending you hadn't told her. That would be a bad sign of a different sort!)

I think the thing about denial - whether it is just one person's denial - or a group denial, is that when something is inescapably wrong you go for the 'least worst' explanation.

So non-participation/incomprehension of a discussion would be about someone being 'a bit deaf.' (Common, acceptable age-related problem that can be mitigated in some situations by use of hearing aid) It would be less likely to be attributed to the onset of dementia. (Progressively gets worse, social stigma attached to this, scary etc etc.)

NB. It might also depend on where family meals take place. A pub/hotel with hard surfaces and crowds and muzak would be terrible with a hearing aid. A quiet family living room perhaps not so bad?