To be worried about MILs plans

[have2nc]

MIL is 80 and lives alone. I think she suffers from depression, but her DC don't seem to feel able to discuss it with her. Her DD describes their family approach to things as 'sweep it under the carpet'. She is very isolated; won't try join groups or meet people. Gets very little exercise or fresh air. I learned recently that she uses her car now to drive one block from her house to get milk, because she gets out of breath walking that distance. She is overweight, but not massively I don't think. I never think of her in those terms but DH worries she is. I talk to DH about this but would never interfere with her DCs relationship with her.

Anyway, we live in a rural village and MIL lives in a city about 45 mins drive from us. I have a 1yr old and a 4 yr old - both born after I turned 40.

Last year I learned MIL was considering selling her city home (a ground floor property, no stairs) and buying a new build double storey home in a village maybe 5 mins from us. No one told me about this, including DH, until she was viewing plans and 'deciding '. Apparently she'd like to live near a field and not a street.

I panicked. I have a number of concerns. Many of them selfish which is why I'm not sure if IABU.

First, she's 80 and I think stairs are an issue. Even DH and she see this as temporary before she moves into her 'old age' type home where she'll get more support. Problem is, I think she's at that 'old age' age now, especially hearing she can't walk one block.

The re-sale value of the village house later won't translate into funds she can use to move back into the city later. I'm worried she'll be trapped here, next door to me.

Bus service to town is very infrequent and unreliable. I don't think she should be driving much longer. She's already hazardously slow on the road.

Nearest hospital is an hour away in a car, so 2 hour round trip. And she's 80.

And this is the selfish bit. I suspect she thinks she'll see my DCs more often. I am craving spare time. I want to re-train and start working again. I don't want to accommodate expected increase in regular visits when I'm struggling for time already and they are unavoidable when she'd be so close. I feel my freedom closing down already, and it feels bloody unfair. DH takes them to see her weekly at the moment.

DH works in town and all her family are there too. I don't want to be the point of call to check on her or give her lifts or any of the myriad things, just because I am near-by. And at her age and her health, I really expect that to happen pretty soon.

My gut feeling us her DD wants to move away, and is trying to pass care on (they are close and see each other all the time). I can't fill that gap. We're not close. FIL was toxic, and although he has died and she isn't toxic, it still affected our relationship because I kept my distance. I know she thinks I should have tolerated him regardless, and she is silently disapproving, and always always finds a way to bring me down. Whenever I'm with her I wait for the comment and almost feel relief that she's made it and hopefully it's out the way for the rest of the visit.

AIBU to want her DCs to dissuade her from this move. I feel ill about it. I feel it could really ruin my life. There. Selfish.

Maybe if you find your voice in front of MIL she won't move, OP. You said She is silently disapproving, and always always finds a way to bring me down. Whenever I'm with her I wait for the comment and almost feel relief that she's made it and hopefully it's out the way for the rest of the visit.

She won't be quite so eager to have you be the "helper" when she realises you will call her up on little digs and won't be told what to do. People who are unpleasant don't necessarily mellow with age. If she realises you will call the shots, she might be off.

Op, you do not need a job or to turn the granny flat into an office.
Make it clear to your DH and his sisters you cannot and will not do it. You are not going to be emergency contact, you will not help. You may visit but that is all.
Make it non negotiable. You are on the fringes of the family anyway, you have nothing to lose, except your sanity.

Bullshitbingo this is so true. Doesn't matter what ground rules you set ahead of time - but none of that will really matter if she makes this move and you're the only one to hand.

I've been living this situation with my FIL for almost a year. I set limits, but in the end, can I live with myself when it's within my power to make a positive difference in the life of an old man?

OP -fight this move tooth and nail, or you'll be on the hook for responding (or not) to calls from neighbours, ambulance, etc.

I agree with Justsayno. They'll agree to your ground rules in advance but won't stick to them when it all becomes reality.

DH already does as much as he can. He can't do more. I don't think his SIL experiences her DM as a burden. They get on well and live relatively near each other. I think she worries about her though but is in big denial about how elderly she really is. DH works one day a week at home and takes DCs to SIL house where MIL joins them too. He then hides in her study to work. So MIL sees DCs for a solid day one day a week which I think is more than fair, and a lot more than my parents see them! I am pretty sure I'm judged for not turning up as well, but I don't care.

Exactly. You'd have to be pretty inhuman to refuse to (let's say) leave an old woman locked out of her house in the cold, needing the loo, when it would take you 10 minutes to get round there but your dh wouldn't make it for over an hour. Or leave her sitting in the dark (or trying to get up those stairs) when a light bulb blows. But that is precisely the sort of drop-everything call that you'd be getting - on top of the everyday things like shopping trips and company-keeping. And that's before her health starts deteriorating badly, or it turns out that she does, indeed, have dementia.

That's why your MIL needs to be in a setup where those kinds of things would be taken care of, and support can be increased alongside her increasing needs. The very kind of support she'd get in a warden-assisted supported living environment. It's an ideal setup for her, as PPs have said. If she moves to the place that she's currently looking at, she's basically setting herself up for a crisis, and setting you up to be constantly running after her.

This happened to my mum. My grandmother lived near us and helped out my parents when she was younger and we were children. However as she got older and clearly had dementia my dad and his brother were in denial to an extent and my mum was left to pickup the pieces with taking her to appointments, sorting her shopping, etc even when she was in a warden assisted place. It was hard on her and she felt tied. She finally persuaded them to move her to a nursing home and was immensely relieved when she had less responsibility. It isn't selfish to want your own career and also you have young children to take care of.

If she's a dangerous driver her children should take responsibility for that and then consider if this new house is suitable for a non driver, your husband needs to listen to your concerns for his mothers and other people's safety and sanity, he's being selfish as is his sister.

(The 'exactly' was in response to Justsayno!)

Gah. 'refuse to HELP an old woman'. Not 'refuse to leave her locked out of her house!'

Re: dementia.

My FIL sounds good on the surface - knows people/date/current events/location etc. Reasoning seems spot on. Seems with it based on social conversation. However, when you know him, and have ongoing conversations, you start to spot the gaps in memory, especially the short term memories like you've referenced. It's sometimes difficult to determine what is "dementia" and what is wishful thinking - wanting to go home, drive, walk, etc. (none of which are remotely possible).

Makes it difficult to argue a decision made by him, as you know he's not making it based on memory/awareness of recent events, but others aren't aware of that - and arguing that he's losing it so not competent makes others think we have ulterior motives. Or maybe that's my past history with patients' families speaking...

A scan of FIL's head showed "swiss cheese brain" - the doctor described it as a typical 80+ year old brain. Still functioning, but with spotty gaps that aren't always apparent in functioning. Definitely more obvious when ill.

Re: driving,

MY FIL was driving up to the time he fell and couldn't get up. Several accidents. Here, once drivers reach age 80, they are required to go through a driver fitness test every two years.The test starts with their family doctor and a report sent to the Office of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles, which then decides if an elderly driver needs to undergo a DriveABLE test, a touch screen computer program that helps assess a driver's cognitive skills. I just received all the notifications and have returned FIL's license - when I told him, he wanted to know how to get it back. Giving up independence is horrible.

The nice thing about this system is it provides an external/non-family check on driving ability and helps remove the unsafe elderly from the roads. Do you not have something similar where you are?

I'll admit I don't know the particulars, but is it possible that SiL feels that she's 'done her share' of the caring and that now it's her brother's turn? My uncles let my mum and aunt (both of whom worked) care for their aging parents whilst they just popped in for visits until my father and uncle (aunt's DH) pulled them up on it and said they needed to share in their parent's care equally with their sisters.

My feeling is that the primary carer is the child, not his/her spouse. And certainly not just because that spouse is female!!! My MiL is gone but had a long period of illness and being in a care home. DH and I decided when she became ill that the primary responsibility belongs to the child, not the 'in-law'. And that neither of us would ever put a stick in about what the other felt they needed to do, even if it meant canceling a family event or having to rearrange domestic chores. If MiL needed something, it was DH's responsibility to take time off and do what was needed. My 'role' was strictly supportive. I'd 'keep the home fires burning' and occasionally run an errand, but neither of us was to expect the other to take care of our aging parent. The same is true for me now that my mum is in care. If I feel I need to run to see Mum, DH will finish cooking dinner. If I feel I need to sit with her or take her to the doctor, DH will not complain if I cancel plans.

You need a frank talk with your DH, or you will end up providing primary care for your MiL.

You will have to be real tough about this. If she moves she does but you just don't do the stuff you don't what to and that is it.

I would look after my MIL but would not contemplate for a second doing anything for my SIL and only very little for my FIL as they are really not nice people.

Exactly. You'd have to be pretty inhuman to refuse to (let's say) leave an old woman locked out of her house in the cold, needing the loo, when it would take you 10 minutes to get round there but your dh wouldn't make it for over an hour. Or leave her sitting in the dark (or trying to get up those stairs) when a light bulb blows. But that is precisely the sort of drop-everything call that you'd be getting - on top of the everyday things like shopping trips and company-keeping. And that's before her health starts deteriorating badly, or it turns out that she does, indeed, have dementia.

Yep. And it's not even just about being 'inhuman' or not. You and DH are talking a good game about you not doing anything and it falling to him OP, but the reality is that you can't compartmentalise like that in a family. If leaving work every time there's an emergency has an impact on his job, you're going to end up doing at least some of them because you as a family need his income. If he has to use all his annual leave accompanying her to medical appointments, that means you don't get a family holiday together. Either that, or in order to prevent this from happening, you shoulder some of the burden. Whichever way, it is going to impact on you.

I agree with a pp who said I'd be contacting the driving licence people for a start. You should be doing that anyway if she's dangerous, quite apart from the issue of where she lives.

My partner and I are - for geographical reasons - the people who look after my father-in-law. (Other brother not in the UK) People can be very frail but live a long time. My father-in-law is 95.

Until my partner's work circumstances changed, I did quite a lot of taking him to hospital appointments. My partner did shopping for him. When he was living independently in his flat, there were times when we rang and there was no answer. We'd drive round and found he had left the phone off the hook.

Now he's in sheltered accommodation, things are easier.

Is is possible to get your mother-in-law to have a health check up at her GPs? Perhaps with your husband there? Maybe get an initial memory test done too? The doctor might then be able to advise as to what kind of living arrangements were appropriate for someone in you mother-in-law's state of health. It is also very very useful to have Power of Attorney set up while the older person has capacity to sign the necessary documents.

My husband has this and it's been a godsend. Because a couple of year's ago my father-in-law's 'poor memory' and 'forgetfulness' deteriorated significantly. He's been diagnosed with mixed dementia.

OP, you are not being selfish at all. You are being realistic and self-caring, and that is very different (and it is the right thing to do).

The difficulty with older age (80+) is that each 'solution' lasts for a very short period of time.

For my parents it started with an extra handrail on the stairs, rails on both sides of the front steps (still very mobile, but needed something to hold on to), unable to walk to the shops - so drive to supermarket because it was all flat and no difficult crossings. Got a downstairs toilet built (just as well because a few months later there was no way dmum would make it upstairs in a hurry), induction hob (so she wouldn't leave the gas on by mistake), home call arrangement (an alarm call button worn round her neck) to call help if she fell. Investment (?) of £££ for electronic chairs to help them up, electronic beds to help them up, stannah stair lift. Then stairs became impossible so it was a wholesale house re-organisation to have a bedroom downstairs. Shopping and cooking became more and more difficult so family helped out with providing meals - and so it went on.

All of that over a period of 7 years. Twice during that period me dh and I looked at making modifications to our house so my M&D could come and live with us, but we hadn't even got planning permission before the situation had changed to another phase.

My lovely PILs moved to a 'sheltered' bungalow when they were 80. They were sad to leave their huge and hilly garden, and they were sad to loose their view of farmland and trees. However, the house they live in was DESIGNED for older people and their changing needs. They had a warden for support and also lots of other neighbours who would all look out for each other. If Catherine hadn't opened her curtains by 10am - someone would be round to check on her; if Doris felt a bit wobbly the first person she called was her elderly pal Norman. There were people around who could spend lots of time chatting about the surprise appearance of a squirrel on the bird feeder. And there was a warden who noticed the changes in stages of dementia. All of this was a godsend.

OP, if your dh and SIL will listen to nothing else, then please persuade them that whatever move your MIL makes next needs to have the right infrastructure for the next 10 years - because otherwise, it will be very, very costly to have to make those moves several times.

Would she considered sheltered housing in a village with fields etc? Somewhere with someone on call?

The idea of moving into a two story property in a rural location at 80 is madness. I cannot believe that your DH and SIL think that this is a sensible plan. The only move your MIL should make at this age, if any, is to somewhere that will allow her to live as safely and as independently as possible for as long as possible.

My DM is 59 and we're looking at buying a house together (DM, DP, DS and myself). And guess what- we're looking for one where she can have the bedroom downstairs if she needs it. We're also taking into account that she won't be able to drive forever so it can't be a remote location. Again, my mum is 60, very fit and healthy- she can't wait until she goes swimming with my 15 month old. I don't know what your DH is like, could you show him this thread or would he think it's a betrayal of sorts? Could you get some FT work or is childcare too prohibitive.

The thing about moving at this age is that you have to make a plan that will suit for 5 or 10 years' time, not how they are now. We had this with my parents, who are 83/84, although, to be fair, they're pretty active socially. At one point they were looking at a chalet bungalow, which was lovely, but I told them flat out that they could NOT buy it (we speak our minds in our family), as it was a complete waste of the two bedrooms upstairs. My dad was all for one of them being used as a library/study for him, but if there were stairs in the house, he was going to be traipsing up and down them, and realistically, a fall down the stairs would be a high likelihood, as he's not too steady after a knee replacement.
In the end, they went for a fabulous new-build bungalow. They still wouldn't consider sheltered accommodation, as "that's for old people!"

Agree with clam, your MIL does need to think beyond now. The thing is, huge investments might be pointless, dementia can sometimes take ages, sometimes go really quickly. One of my relatives had a really slow onset, then at 80 something went from somewhat forgetful to not knowing her name and running away at night in the space of 5 months. And any changes can speed things up, so a move would be the last thing I'd suggest unless her current house is unsuitable.

No way should an 80yo who feels isolated in town move to a rural area. Hell, I hate the suburbs, and I was only 38 when we moved here! When we were house-hunting, we saw family-sized houses in terrible states because elderly people (mostly widows) had not been able to keep things up. That leads to damp, mould, and dust (all bad for the lungs), not to mention the fire dangers of dodgy electrics and gas. At her age, she should be downsizing, not taking on stairs!

The mobility question makes it even more crazy an idea. Country life sounds very nice, but the reality is that there are no smooth pavements for tottery old people to go out and enjoy that "lovely fresh air." So if she's confined to a car, could she knock down any of your neighbours? Presumably you would know many of the children in the village, too: how would you and DH feel if she knocked over a child you know because s/he ran out in front of MIL, who would then be unable to stop in time?

I agree with all PPs who think you should report her driving. That would mean DH, SIL and the useless one had to consider her country-living dream on more realistic terms.

A final point: if she's constantly getting digs in at you, she clearly feels uncomfortable with you. Perhaps it was your keeping your distance when FIL was alive and your (relative) assertiveness since then, but surely you're the person she can feel least comfortable with as a carer! If she is sliding into dementia (and that story about your DM's breast cancer was chilling), her inhibitions can only be broken down MORE.

Report her driving (or get a friend in town to do it, if you're afraid it won't be truly and try the she-feels-uncomfortable-with-me line with DH.

While I understand your SIL might feel 'done' and like she's done more than her share and it's someone else's turn, YANBU to say this is not the solution.

DH needs to step up and INSIST on sheltered accommodation by the sounds of the situation. He needs to say emphatically that you will not be the go to person if MIL makes this crazy move, and that his job supports his family and has to come first as well. Sheltered accommodation is the sensible solution, and he should promise to find her some place to go.

If SIL doesn't support the idea, then tell her nothing changes. MIL will not be moving, you and DH will not be helping if she figures out a way to move without your help, and that you will also move away if she does.

This is not cruel or unreasonable. It it sensible. She is 80, declining physically and mentally, and will need more support as time passes, not less. Sheltered accommodation is made for people like MIL.

Rural living for the elderly is, indeed very difficult. It seems your dh should be the one who listens to you and tried to reason with her. He's reluctant, why? So try to find a reason that does resonate with him.. The expense of moving twice, that's wasted money. The amount of time it will take to do any trips, if she wants to visit her dd she will probably need a lift which will be very time consuming and not a work opportunity. Does he want to be her emotional support if she is depressed? The taker to all medical appointments?

I suggest you make plans for your annexe and action them promptly because she will be in there at some stage if you aren't careful . I also wonder if she finds the DC visits rather a lot. Maybe she feels obliged to go and help whilst dh is working yet finds them exhausting. She may well like to see them frequently but for shorter amounts of time.

She may have a lovely dream of rural life with you all popping in and out and taking good care of her. She needs a reality check. A visit, perhaps, when you are all quite busy and she needs to fend for herself? You can lay it on about how difficult it is to do X and y.

I hope you do get dh on side, it's a daft plan and YANBU.

Ooooh! And look what just came up on YouTube!

You're going to love this song right now...

(Funky Town - safe to play in children's hearing)

I agree with pretty much all you've said. When this all came up it was within a year of DH and I moving here. That was intensely stressful and his mum gets anxious. I pointed that out to him. DH and his family don't really talk, but I do in my family and I am brutally blunt with DH. I've said this all to him.

We have different opinions about the village. He thinks a small community will ease his mother's loneliness. I disagree.

I also think the real attraction for his mum is that it's a twee conservation village, and she has delusions of grandeur. She's a bit of a snob. But frankly, the people she thinks are la-Dee-dah are not the ones who will befriend her. I know because I live near there. Cliquey.

I'm afraid I think this is also partly why she will never join in community groups or embrace the kind of assisted housing you're all talking about. I can't put my finger on it (I'm not British so not sure exactly how to phrase this) but I think she doesn't think that's what her class/type of person would do. I'm not sure what she expects actually: to decline gently at home with 24 hour nursing? Or maybe she thinks she'll die in hospital. I don't think anyone has thought of the years between then.

My mum would happily go to bingo for a laugh, despite the fact she IS a bit posh. MIL is not posh at all and is totally incapable of just having good fun. She's her own worst enemy which is partly why, although I'm sympathetic for her loneliness, I don't have much tolerance.

DH and I once bumped into a National Trust group of elderly people touring a fancy building. I commented then that maybe THAT's what his DM could do. (Excited) Initially he agreed - National Trust posh houses and grandeur, but then after listening to the regional accents, he said 'Mum would hate this'. He didn't say why but I KNOW that's what it was. Common interest in history is not enough.

She's a pain in the arse!

I need to talk to DH again tonight and see what he says after niece told us about the driving one block because she can't manage the walk. Maybe he's realising now it's heading in one direction.