Why would someone say this about vaccines? Is it odd?

[PuzzlingPanda]

Was in a health food shop today and mentioned an ongoing issue I'm having with one of my do.

The man mentioned he thought the biggest thing going wrong with our children was all the vaccines they receive. He said they full of nasties, designed to make people ill.

It could be put down to a man having a pointless rant but why would he say this? Is there any sort of truth in it?

Not the first time I've heard negative things about vaccines.

Now I'm worried about it.

I remember having a discussion with someone on MN once who thought her child's immunity to the vaccine would only kick in if enough people were vaccinated. If people didn't vaccinate then her child wasn't immune.

Unvaccinated children are very unlikely to be carrying around all these diseases just because they happen to be unvaccinated. There are plenty of non-immune older children/adults than unvaccinated children and people don't tend to worry too much about their children coming into contact with them.

"How does that pose a threat?"

Because as someone pointed out upthread, vaccines aren't 100% effective, and if unvaccinated child has been exposed to, say, mumps, they're very likely to get it. And be infectious. It'd be nice to know that not only has your child been almost certainly protected against various diseases, but that in the event the vaccine didn't work they're unlikely to be exposed to them either because almost everyone around them is immune and there isn't a nice reservoir of not-immune people for the disease to hang out in.

Though, to be honest, older vaccinated kids wouldn't be a big concern for me, I'd be a lot more worried about young babies who haven't been vaccinated yet. My BIL's nephew got a nasty case of measles from an outbreak in his area before he was old enough to get the MMR, and I do judge the parents of the older children he got it from if they weren't vaccinated.

Read the thread title. I have nothing against health foods but I have everything against a shop assistant saying vaccines have nasties in them. A very scholarly exclamation, as I said it is highly likely this Dr Holland and Barrett has been vaccinated himself and possibly consulted the eminent nobel prize winner Dr Google for his ramblings.

OP has not been back..

Hmm

I took the view that the risk of ds being harmed by vaccines was less than the risk of ds getting harmed by the effects of eg measles.

Those on the thread who know - could measles be wiped out like smallpox? It kills and maims so many people, it would be awesome to see the back of that.

Typical tactic to stir up a group. But since it was asked - the reason i get angry is because i live with the after effecrs of having rubella with severe complications. I have deafness and daily pain. Un my case it was unavoidable - the MMR wasn't out yet, but in the case of my son, if he had caught it from an unvaccinated child I feel there is no excuse for that.

I'm one of the lucky ones, btw. I'm now 100% immune to rubella, and I know thats from the vaccine I later had, because I am immune to measles and mumps too, and i've never had them. All confirmed via blood test. Simples!

The south Wales measles epidemic a few years ago could have been avoided. People died. All because of shit stirring.

I'm sorry to hear that, Rhoda. DP has a cousin who's profoundly deaf from in utero rubella exposure. "Harmless childhood disease", my arse.

As someone who is a scientist, and also has given the majority of vaccines on the schedule (but in a more spread out way) I agree with most of what wannaBe and pigeonpoo have said. Btw there are plenty of scientists and medical professionals who deviate from the schedule to some extent, so I'm not that unusual.

I'm not aware of 10 live viruses in vaccines, but I do think there hasn't been enough research into the effect of multiple doses of adjuvant simultaneously on a very immature immune system, in which proper 'priming' seems to be critical for the prevention of allergies and autoimmune disease. (Adjuvants are the part of an inactive vaccine that triggers an immune response, like alum.) Rates of allergies and autoimmune disease like Type I diabetes are rising at an alarming rate and noone is really sure why, but it has been linked to a faulty Th1/Th2 balance in the developing immune system, and the adjuvants in vaccines are known to stimulate the immune system in a skewed way (which is why vaccine mediated immunity with inactive vaccines is often shorter lived than disease mediated immunity). Lots of researchers have speculated that there may be a link, but that isn't widely known or acknowledged. I'm not saying that these vaccines shouldn't be given btw, or that these are the only possible explanation for the rise in immune disorders, but they could be one of several factors and I think that there should be a more open conversation about alternative schedules for instance to minimise any damage this may do.

Mumps immunity from MMR is well documented to wear off in the late teens and early twenties, when it becomes more of a problem for males in particular, and in recent years there have been outbreaks in this age group with a large proportion having previously been vaccinated. (Google the HPS or PHE quarterly disease summaries for details.)

I would however strongly disagree that vaccines should be mandatory. Firstly, I don't think there is enough acknowledgement of the problems caused by vaccines, and getting a Dr to agree that there are 'medical reasons' would be tricky when herd immunity is at stake. A large proportion of people get some level of reaction to vaccines, and if they were all exempt there might not be enough people left to give herd immunity. (See the recent case of a boy damaged by the swine flu vaccine and the fight they had for acknowledgement.) Also, as mentioned upthread the schedule is based on what's best for the population rather than the individual, and I think there is an ethical problem in, for instance, a toddler being forced to have a live flu vaccine that isn't primarily for their benefit, to protect older people who are perfectly entitled to have the safer inactive vaccine in their own right.

The south Wales measles epidemic a few years ago could have been avoided. People died. All because of shit stirring.

Genuine question, not trying to catch you out - but did people die? My understanding was one man who had underlying health conditions died. But no children.

I find that interesting too paranip, how anti vaxxers who blithely play roulette with their children's health are just so darn calm and mellow about it.

pigeonpoo am pretty sure you're right. It was one man who died.

pigeon I think you are right - I think it was a ridiculous amount hospitalised and one death. Thanks for the correction

"Mumps immunity from MMR is well documented to wear off in the late teens and early twenties"

As I understand it, it's not as simple as "it wears off completely for everybody and leaves you completely exposed, everyone who gets MMR is not immune to mumps in adulthood", more like "the immunity may wane to the extent that if you're exposed repeatedly/in close contact with infected people you might catch it". You're still more likely to be immune after 15 years than not, and vaccination still reduces the amount of live virus in the community. I thought this was a good summary (covers the PHE report):
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/04/rise-mumps-waning-immunity-mmr-vaccine

If you believe Dr Google the man who died was 25 and there were 1219 cases. Emergency vaccine was sought and Parents were queueing to get jabs for their kids

"did people die?"

Though presumably we should also worry about outbreaks in which people are "just" hospitalized by the disease and/or have long-lasting health complications. As I said above, I don't think we should only vaccinate against things that will definitely kill you.

My sister is extremely against vaccinations. She only had her dc vaxinated when she was 14 because there was a massive outbreak of measles in Swansea a few years ago.

The thing about vaxines is they not only provide dc with immunisation against nasty diseases such as measles (which can be life threatening) but also helps the whole community by raising collective immunity which prevents out breaks in the first place.

leedy, I don't think we're disagreeing. My point was in response to a poster who wasn't aware of waning Mumps immunity from MMR and the consequent rise in cases in the late teens/early twenties group. You could argue that these people might have been better off catching Mumps in early childhood rather than later, as most did before the MMR, but that's a whole can of worms! I guess that's the chance you take when you aim to eliminate a childhood disease through vaccination.

I'm back now! I was not trying to cause any ill feeling! I'm actually terrified to post now but anyhow.

I've enjoyed reading the thread and it's given me lots to think about. Of course I've heard of people not vaccinating their children before but I didn't really give it much thought as to why.

So now a couple of years later when my son is having one round of sickness after another when someone said its all linked to vaccines it has made me worried.

This is compounded by the fact that I taking my baby to get the chickenpox vaccine in the next few days (personal choice, she has been through so much recently and I just don't want her to get it ). Am starting to doubt now.

Apologies to those who feel I'm trying to stir, I'm not.

Apologies to those who think I must only have recently got acces to the Internet as I'm not well enough versed in the arguments.

Am going to read over the thread again as I'm feeling more confused than ever now!

I wish I knew if I'm making the right decision about the chicken pox vaccine.

Public Health info on measles outbreak
www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

Just one man that died? Well that's OK then.

Anti - vaxxers boil my piss. Selfish fuckers.

At last people are having a conversation here, thank heavens. There are a lot of people who are scientists posting here so may I ask a question, do vaccines give life-long immunity?

Furthermore, I am over sixty, so was only vaccinated against polio and smallpox as a child, got measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox. Have never had whooping cough or meningitis. So obviously under the logic of herd immunity I am a danger of contagion for whooping cough and meningitis.

PuzzlingPanda there are plenty of studies that have not found that vaccinated children are less healthy.
thoughtscapism.com/2015/04/10/myth-no-studies-compare-the-health-of-unvaccinated-and-vaccinated-people/

Of course, if you google if unvaccinated children are healthier, you are med with hudreds of results claiming this has been proven. Those are all citing each other and mainly based on a few phoneand internet surveys, conducted by anti-vaccine websites, amongst anti-vaccine parents. Who, surprisingly, replied 'yes, of couse' to the question 'do you think your unvaccinated child is healthier'.
scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/31/an-anti-vaccine-administered-survey-back/

OP, there is nothing to be confused about. You only need to ask yourself one question:

Are you going to take advice from professionals such as doctors and nurses whose only concern is your childs health and who are very well trained in doing so OR are you going to take advice from random weirdos in shops and anonymous folks on the internet with no training in anything?

Up to you.