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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why would someone say this about vaccines? Is it odd?

586 replies

PuzzlingPanda · 09/03/2016 19:59

Was in a health food shop today and mentioned an ongoing issue I'm having with one of my do.

The man mentioned he thought the biggest thing going wrong with our children was all the vaccines they receive. He said they full of nasties, designed to make people ill.

It could be put down to a man having a pointless rant but why would he say this? Is there any sort of truth in it?

Not the first time I've heard negative things about vaccines.

Now I'm worried about it.

OP posts:
FlatPeach · 10/03/2016 08:52

A very good friend of mine refuses all vaccines for her 3 children, one was recently admitted to hospital for suspected meningitis which thank goodness was found to be just a general viral infection although he was kept in for 5 days to rule out anything more serious. Despite this she still hasn't vaccinated any of her children.

I really struggle that my kind, intelligent and loving friend would put her and other children at such risk. She is equally baffled that I would allow my child to be poisoned by mercury / soylent green / kryptonite.

I'm currently pregnant, if this pregnancy continues I have to decide if I would let her or her children come into contact with the baby until my child has been immunised. If I don't allow it i will probably lose my closest friend

wannaBe · 10/03/2016 09:05

I think that to blindly accept is to go down the path of naivety. That doesn't mean that things need to be seen in black and white in terms of either being pro/anti vacs, there are IMO a lot of shades of grey in the middle of those two arguments.

For a number of illnesses, vaccination is absolutely the way forward in terms of protecting against them. However, for a number of others the advent of vaccinations have led to a conditioning of people into believing that previously mild illnesses are suddenly deadly killers and that only vaccination will guard against almost certain death. I'm referring to the chicken pox vaccine here. Chicken pox is not a deadly disease on a par with small pox/measles etc. Yes of course any illness will have its tragic outcomes for a tiny minority of people, but for the most part chicken pox is a mild illness which is better caught when young. And the one thing which people have seemingly lost sight of is that for many of these illnesses, they are in fact far worse when contracted as adults, and vaccination does not guarantee life-long immunity.

Afaik there has been a huge increase in mumps in young adults over the last few years as the mumps component of the MMR has ceased to continue to be effective and immunity has been lost, and as such many young adults are contracting mumps at a time when their health is at far greater risk from it.

My DS is thirteen now so we're way beyond the time of vaccinations, but although he did have all his jabs, MMR etc I will never be comfortable with the idea that we blindly inject around ten live viruses into tiny babies from the age of six weeks to just over a year and consider that it's healthy to do so. Possibly the lesser of two evils in some instances, but healthy? Absolutely not.

It's also worth remembering that until not so long ago the baby jabs contained thermerisol (sp?) which contains Mercury which was, iirc, linked to vaccine damage in babies.

And lastly, people are very quick to jump on anyone who dares to suggest that death is rare in e.g. Cases of chicken pox, on the basis of "you wouldn't be saying that if it was your child," and they all rush out to vaccinate their children and berate anyone who doesn't. Why then are the parents of babies who are the victims of vaccine damage not given the same understanding? Why, if people bring up the point that children do die and become severely disabled as a result of some vaccinations is the fact that "you wouldn't be saying that if it was your child," not met with the same understanding?

There is a vaccine damage compensation fund in this country. if vaccine damage was a myth such a compensation fund wouldn't exist would it?

Also, a number of people have recently received compensation after developing narcolepsy following the swine flu vaccine, while we all look at MMR as the scary culprit, the fact is that damage from vaccinations does occur, maybe not on a mass scale, but equally on no less a scale than e.g. Deaths from mild illnesses we rush to vaccinate against.

leedy · 10/03/2016 09:16

"vaccination does not guarantee life-long immunity. "

Well, given that the chicken pox vaccine has only been around for about thirty years I'm not sure how they could guarantee life long immunity from it, unless you're in Logan's Run. There does seem to be evidence from Japan (where it was developed, IIRC) that the first cohort who were vaccinated still have immunity. Also getting two shots of it is more effective than one.

I haven't heard any evidence that, eg, the MMR wears off if you have the initial jab and the booster.

Personally I didn't vaccinate my kids against chicken pox because I thought they'd die if they got it, but I did want to avoid even non-fatal complications or them getting miserably sick, especially as DS2 had eczema as a baby which raises the risk of chicken pox spots getting infected. And of course even infected spots can get nasty (just read this this morning): www.todayfm.com/Chickenpox-Nearly-Killed-Our-Son

leedy · 10/03/2016 09:18

(I had cellulitis in my foot once from an infected scratch, it's naaaaaasty)

leedy · 10/03/2016 09:23

Damage from vaccines is caused "on no less a scale than e.g. Deaths from mild illnesses we rush to vaccinate against"? Really? Evidence?

Also what are these "mild illnesses"? The only one you've mentioned is chicken pox. How about Men. B and C? Rubella? Whooping cough? Should we only vaccinate against diseases that will definitely kill you if you catch them?

pigeonpoo · 10/03/2016 09:31

I think there's 2 extremes on both sides and neither are helpful. There's those who refuse to acknowledge risk on the side of vaccines and will only accept a teeny weeny tiny risk - not that there's any possibility of finding things out later on such as if they are contributing in rising rates of autoimmune problems. Some of the vaccines on are schedule have only been used on the younger generation we simply cannot say well I had them and I'm fine because - no we didn't. We had different vaccines and far less of them in a time period.

Then there's the other side who are extreme and suggest that only an idiot would dare vaccinate their child - who again are saying that there's only a teeny weeny risk of a child becoming injured or worse by the actual illnesses and that vaccines have nothing to do with prevention because the diseases were declining due to other factors.

Problem is there's a tiny bit of merit to both sides but neither gives anything but a distorted picture

And unless you have the money, time, objectivity and skill or training you will not be able to work out the best ever vaccine programme for your child

Which is why we have to go on trust that the people who do have this - have done it. (The researchers, budgeters, healthcare professionals) but this is hard for some because they know that it's not their individual child, it's the population overall it's developed to be best for.

The health food shop man was incredibly unfair suggesting to a worried parent she's to blame for giving vaccines however. And was a complete idiot but I'm sure it's easy to say from where he's stood - people like to reason things out to themselves as long as it doesn't actually make any difference to them personally - such as those coming up with causes of autism (I don't mean genuine researchers) it's easy to do unless you have an autistic child.

My personal opinion is vaccines should be mandatory except for health reasons - to remove blame and guilt from parents if it does go wrong. But I say that as someone who struggled and got caught in the trap of researching and simply wishes I wasn't given that responsibility or freedom. Not as someone who thinks we should call people who don't vaccinate or do it on schedule idiots.

RhodaBorrocks · 10/03/2016 09:33

"we blindly inject around ten live viruses into tiny babies from the age of six weeks to just over a year"

OK, let's just stop right there. The only live vaccine children routinely get is the MMR, which is why it's not given until after a year. The other 2 optional ones for kids are the flu nasal spray and the BCG if you're at risk of TB, plus some travelling ones (but if you're taking your child somewhere requiring that when they're tiny and you're not from there then I question your judgement). Can we please stop with the live vaccine shite now?

MoonriseKingdom · 10/03/2016 09:34

Chicken pox for most is a pretty mild disease. However this link shows some of the serious complications that can occur.
www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html
I also know of a family whose immunosuppressed son died of chicken pox caught from a sibling. He could not have been vaccinated but if vaccination was routine he might not have caught it.

Sadly vaccines are not 100% safe. A family member had a vanishingly rate but very serious complication from a vaccine. Vaccines are only put into the routine schedule when the evidence is that the risk of harm from the vaccine is greatly outweighed by the morbidity/ mortality of the disease in question.

sugar21 · 10/03/2016 10:32

The fact remains as regards to the thread title, a twonk in a shop is probably not a qualified medical professional or research scientist. Therefore he should not give advice about vaccinations. I would have asked him if he had been vacccinated. Most of us have had jabs and we are still here.

Gowgirl · 10/03/2016 10:35

I cut off an anti vas friend she explained her reasons, I accept them but no way in hell are MY kids being exposed to them, unless there is a medical reason for abstaining I believe no jabs should mean no nursery or school.

bumbleymummy · 10/03/2016 10:42

Are your children vaccinated Gowgirl?

KatharinaRosalie · 10/03/2016 11:00

Please, not with the 'but if your children are vaccinated, why do you care if others are not' again...

ollieplimsoles · 10/03/2016 11:09

Lol they've arrived.

I know the argument against vaccines thanks, I used to believe it all, I was an anti vaxxer.

Until I had kids and thought to myself 'wait, is this really a good idea' I then went through a hellish four weeks researching both sides thoroughly before realising that anti vaxxers are all fucking nuts, and dd had hers done. So glad I wasn't sucked in to their guilt tripping and anecdotal evidence...

You don't want to get your kids vaccinated because you just don't want to take them, its unpleasant and can make you feel like you are doing something wrong because they cry. Normal parents suck it up, and realise its for the greater good. Anti vaxxers look for reasons not to do it so they don't have to take their kids to have then them done.

By all means do your research, but do it properly, look for scientific studies that are peer reviewed, not some asshole with a keyboard and a facebook group...

bumbleymummy · 10/03/2016 11:19

It's not about whether you 'care' if they're vaccinated or not but Gowgirl seemed concerned about her children being exposed to unvaccinated children - enough to cut off a friend.

It also puzzles me that people who express those type of concerns don't seem to be as worried about exposure when the child has a 'medical reason' not to be vaccinated.

pigeonpoo · 10/03/2016 11:36

You don't want to get your kids vaccinated because you just don't want to take them, its unpleasant and can make you feel like you are doing something wrong because they cry. Normal parents suck it up, and realise its for the greater good. Anti vaxxers look for reasons not to do it so they don't have to take their kids to have then them done.

I don't think worrying my son would cry was ever something I agonised over when I struggled with my decision making. I find it hard to believe any parent of a small child would be worried about a child crying as part of their decision making process - for anything really.

FlatPeach · 10/03/2016 11:39

bumble Personally I would have the same concerns about letting a baby in particular have direct contact with an unvaccinated child whether for medical or 'personal' reasons

pickledparsnip · 10/03/2016 11:40

I can't understand why people worry about their vaccinated children being around unvaccinated children. It makes absolutely no sense.

bananafish81 · 10/03/2016 11:44

Why parsnip? Why on earth not? Herd immunity?

pigeonpoo · 10/03/2016 11:44

I can't understand why people worry about their vaccinated children being around unvaccinated children. It makes absolutely no sense.

Actually it does. They believe in the herd immunity theory. Where they acknowledge vaccines aren't 100% effective and won't have worked in every child who receives the vaccine - but if enough of the population are vaccinated the disease can't spread in that population anyhow.
Unvaccinated children pose a threat to the effectiveness of herd immunity

pickledparsnip · 10/03/2016 11:44

Why do those who are pro vaccines always come to these threads with such anger? The only calm ones ever seem to be those who either don't vaccinate or at least research lots and are skeptical. Trying to make someone feel like a shit parent for not vaccinating isn't going to make that person rush out and give their kids all the jabs available. Jeez.

In real life I only know a few people who have ever discussed their views on vaccinations openly. It is no one else's business.

FlatPeach · 10/03/2016 11:45

What about newborns pickled?

pickledparsnip · 10/03/2016 11:47

I'm talking about friends with unvaccinated children not being able to hang out with their friends who have been vaccinated. We're talking small scale here. How does that pose a threat?

kali110 · 10/03/2016 11:48

Can people stop saying people who go to health food shops are these type of people Grin
Myself and friends go to health food shops and certainly do not believe in not vaccinating

kali110 · 10/03/2016 11:49

I can certainly understand people who do vacinate being angry at people who do not.

KatharinaRosalie · 10/03/2016 11:51

I can't understand why people worry about their vaccinated children being around unvaccinated children. It makes absolutely no sense.

Besides herd immunity, as said, vaccinations don't offer 100% protection. If we take just measles, vaccine protection rate is about 97% after 2 doses. Measles infection rate is about 90% though

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