To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

I don't define male and female, I believe people are able to do that for themselves.

Dinosaursroar

By not putting Jenny in with the boys they are recognising that the boys might pose a threat to Jenny, but by doing that are not passing judgement on those particular boys, if the school is making safe guarding decisions based on biological sex and not on the individual child's personality, then Jenny should be judged the same way as all the other children on the trip.

You've put it perfectly.

Does it not seem likely that the school has already considered this and has probably already discussed the issue with Jenny's friends' parents? I imagine they have, but don't feel the need to broadcast this to all parents for understandable confidentiality reasons.

Glad you're not a doctor then, Catching. Given that sex is really quite important regarding certain illnesses. Though I suppose you'd happily categorise prostate cancer a female illness in the name of letting people choose for themselves? Pregnancy and menstruation as a male issue?

Well said fuzzpig.

If she's getting this much of a negative response now at the age of 14 bless her. I can't believe 14 year old girls are being more mature about this than mums on here and not thinking omg there different lets huddle together and make them feel an outcast. I think Jenny has every right to be in the girls room you can't condem someone for something without giving them the chance because if that was the case then no one would trust anyone. Give Jenny the opportunity to show she is female and that she belongs with the girls if you still have questions then meet Jenny get to know her as a person before labelling her X,y,z. The more we ignore her feelings and deny her happiness the more she will suffer no one else.

I would think that Jenny is a very compassionate and unassuming girl. Any one of the girls could be a lesbian and of no threat to any other girl. This sounds like the old attitude of people thinking because someone is gay they must be attracted to everyone of the same sex. You have to realise that nowadays people are allowed to be who they are.

I know you don't want to sound judgemental but you just do.

While teens who want to get up to "lights off shennanigans" (great phrase BTW) could do, it's a lot easier if they are put in the same room so don't risk being caught out of their room, easier for the school to say they tried to stop it by having put children in separate rooms and banned them from going in each others rooms. The school can be seen to have fulfilled their requirement to keep the children safe.

It becomes very difficult to say you've tried to keep the children safe if you've put them in mixed rooms, and I would assume Jenny is travelling as Jack, and while the UK school might accept her as a girl, the country they are going to might have a very different approach.

Huge difference between sex and gender though! And I do work in a medical field, I have seen babies born with genitals that were neither male or female in which case hormones were used to decide what sex the baby was. Hence gender is more than simply genitals.

Glad to see there are lots of others on this thread also baffled by the idea that a 14 year old girl will suddenly be overcome with an overwhelming complusion to molest her friends because she happens to have a penis. My goodness, I sleep naked next to a man with a penis every night and yet he has never rolled me over and forcibly raped me! Because he can control himself!

we don't actually know that the 14 year old girls are being mature about it they might just want to be cool and therefore befriended jenny to seem like they are totally unbothered etc 14 year old girls turn on a dime

Give Jenny the opportunity to show she is female
How can a biologically male person possibly do that?
Identifying as a girl is one thing, but you can't change sex and chromosomes.

Yes - but sex is not. Which is what I was referring to. Nice skirting the question though Catching, I wasn't being rhetorical.

I am still perturbed at the idea that the boys given a chance will rape Jenny.

Perhaps Jenny's parents have already (I would imagine) discussed it with school....if indeed she is actually going on the trip. Are you certain she is?
If she is, perhaps the school has offered a two bed room with just her and her best friend? There could have been all sorts of conversations but you can guarantee, it will have all been discussed.

I've never known a 14 year old girl have a penis Golden but there we go. The unexpected can happen.

Fine then Alis - prostate cancer will never become a female issue (the prostate is removed as part of the surgery), menstruation and pregnancy will not become a female issue (FtM trans have this suppressed and eventually the womb will be removed). Happy?

and i was bullied and accused of being a lesbian in high school (i wasn't i was just a virgin but hey ho) and i also have a 15 year old daughter and can categorically state if you don't fit in there will be hell to pay sooner or later im fortunate my square peg dd fits in with a large group of square pegs at her school they share the same values and not the same rooms

Most M2F never have their genital surgery. So yes most still need to be aware of prostate cancer.

Lucky for you Abis, maybe you would feel differently if you had any knowledge of being the round peg trying to fit in a square board.

If one of the other boys wanted to stay in the girls' room, would that be OK?

Or if one of the girls wanted to stay in the boys' room?

The issue I have with this thread is that it has fuck all to do with the nosy OP. Therefore, she has no idea of the conversations going on behind the scenes. If Jenny is sharing with her closest friends, it's likely they they want to share with her too. I doubt the school has wandering into this without a thought and without a risk assessment.

I don't think Jenny is at risk of being raped by her male schoolmates, more likely that she is going to be picked on for looking different.

There are many circumstance when it is totally inappropriate for an individual with a penis to be in a female only space. I'm just not convinced that we can judge this situation without the facts.

I entirely agree with Zariyah.

There is another almost identical thread with a female who identifies as male going on a residential trip (it was mentioned earlier in this thread).

If this is such a prevalent thing now, then it is about time that schools were given clear guidance on how to proceed, and not 'ask the kids if they mind'.

I posted on the other thread, that as the mother of a son I would not want my son in a position whereby he would be at risk of vexatious allegations.
Similarly, if I had a daughter I would not want her in a position whereby she could be at risk of assault.

It is a safeguarding issue for the schools do make a clear and definite decision on.

I've said this before and will say it again. This will have been extensively risk assessed by the school to protect everyone involved. The school will have taken advice and risk assessments for trips abroad are usually signed off at county level. You would not take a trip otherwise as it would be too risky legally. As this doesn't involve your DS you won't be able to see it as otherwise it would breach confidentiality.

So Thomas Beattie is going to be a one off then Catching?

MTT will start having surgery to render them penis free at rates they currently do not (is it 75% of MTT who keep their fully functioning penis or is it higher?) and the term "cotton ceiling", referring to lesbian women not wishing to have sex with a "female penis" will no longer be used to prove lesbians are transphobic?