To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

I think it's cruel telling children they can be the opposite sex because it is impossible
I would much rather they were encouraged to be comfortable within their own body and wearing/doing whatever makes them happy.
If they persue sex change then, imo, it needs to be made absolutely clear that it is not possible to actually change sex rather it us cosmetic changes that make you appear as the opposite sex

MaryZ:

I can only presume there isn't one. And that transgirls/women just want to be able to socialise with girls, wear skirts and makeup, play with dolls etc etc. Why can't they do that as children or people* instead of having to stop being a boy or man, and try desperately to become a girl or woman (which is physically impossible, no matter what they want to do).

That's the sad part about all this.*

This is exactly my feeling about it all.
It's desperately sad, and yet adults are reinforcing the need to 'emotionally and mentally be female or male' and making these poor kids lives so unnecessarily complicated and unhappy.

Totally agree WhoreOfBabylon.

There's a thread in active at the moment where a poster is worried that her sexing scan might be wrong as she has bought everything in pink with a pink nursery.

No wonder children get so confused when they don't 'fit' the proscribed 'normal'.

It starts from the womb, continues unabated then gets roundly re-enforced.

Thanks, GruntledOne. I'm sure there are psychological issues involved, complex and important ones. (I'm not so clear about physiological. Be that as it may.) I think conceptual and semantic issues such as the ones I gestured to are prior, though.

Regarding issues of sense and nonsense; I do realise it can look like a cheap argumentative tactic to claim 'nonsense'. But once claimed, it seems to behove those who dispute such a claim to explain what the sense is. No? Several pp have pointed to the lack of explanation of 'feeling like a woman emotionally' or what 'being born in the wrong body' might mean. Lack of response to such challenges in any of the threads I've read on MN starts to look notorious; taken as a whole it's clearly evidence for the nonsense claim. So, care to give it a go and supply some sense/meaning?

I do think it's worth pointing up the tacit reification/hypostatization involved in what looks so like doublethink. Recognising that in no way denies any psychological aspects. It might help clarify their nature though, I suspect. Do you agree?

emotionally she's female, mentally female

What does this even mean?

I am all for the "Jenny"s of this world wearing whatever clothes they want to, having whatever interests they like, taking whatever names will make them happy, and so on. What I am not all for is girls and women being coercively forced to surrender single-sex space, and being coercively forced to redefine what being female means.

To answer your question Maryz about the mental/emotional aspect (and this is not my personal view) is that some trans people wish to identify as the opposite sex due to family/religion/society not accepting their sexuality (gay/lesbian). I think this is interesting and may apply to some trans people but overall the question you ask is complex and not many people would accept an opinion without scientific research. I did read something about the fetid being exposed to too much progesterone/estrogen in the womb but nothing is founded and I wouldn't quote.

I don't know why I feel like a woman if I'm honest! I just know I am because of obvious anatomy/functions.

*fetus not fetid!

Is it because we are conditioned as either submissive (female) and dominant (male) and some people confuse that with identifying as the opposite sex?

I honestly don't know, just discussing. Has anyone found any medical research? My quick search found nothing but it has opened my mind to ask why? Thanks Maryz.

I still stand by my pov based on the OP however.

I agree with everything you've said MaryZ.

I am not massively well read up on this whole subject (apart from following links on MN threads & stuff on tv etc).

My feelings mostly come from my own instincts, life experience and empathy.

I think that a whole bunch of adults with their own agenda are creating a new generation of deeply unhappy & troubled souls.

As a child I was a bit if everything (rarely in dresses or skirts though), loved maths and was always trying to 'beat the boys'.
As a teen I tried my hardest to get as many snogs as poss and was a pain in my parents ass, but was still very 'in' with the boys rather than them being an alien species.
As an adult, I worked for 20 yrs as an aircraft techy and spent my working life in overalls, covered in grease and oil, my friends were/are an even split of men & women and I'm just as comfortable with both.
I can't remember the last time I wore a dress or skirt (apart from weddings), but I have regular manicures, beauty treatments and wear make up every day.

If i had to answer the mythical 'gender checklist' that you mentioned earlier I would be neither man nor woman.

I hate that we've become this.
Let everybody be who the fuck they want to be, wear what they want, present how they want, but let's stop pretending that you can 'change your sex', because you can't - it's not biologically possible.

Maryz
I would love to know, for example, how the scout and guide movement is dealing with this issue.

Here's a document from the Scouts. Their approach sounds similar to the OP's child's school (pragmatic; consulting of parties involved etc). If you scroll down the page, there is a section headed: What about nights away, camps and trips?

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

Interestingly:

There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements. Sleeping arrangements should be carefully planned, assessing the needs and ages of young people, and any risks.

Regarding your question:

Do I feel like a man? Is my brain male? Should I have transitioned as a child?

Gender dysphoria is clearly something that goes beyond alignment (or not) with gender expectations. I could write a similar list to yours, as I'm sure could many others, without having a deep-rooted, persistent urge to change identity.

If a male person wants to live as a woman, what does he have to do?

It's down to individual choice, surely, as it would be for anybody born a woman. There are no generic answers.

Let everybody be who the fuck they want to be, wear what they want, present how they want, but let's stop pretending that you can 'change your sex', because you can't - it's not biologically possible.

That's a valid and fair point. I agree but mine and some other responses were to the OP. The thread has evolved into another debate which had been really thought provoking. I am not suggesting that women's rights be ignored, I'd bloody hate that. I guess my thinking is a little liberal in that trans people can be accommodated.

Again I won't link as its not scholarly material (wiki) but there are interesting researches who have found differences in brain function and genes - Hare et al, Zhou et al and Kruijver et al. I've only just found these researchers so I am not suggesting they are right or wrong. Purely musing after Maryz question.

fascicle thanks for the link. There's some really dodgy stuff on that link, enabling dangerous behaviour, including this:

If you have young people who are binding their chests, monitor them carefully during particularly physical activities (such as rock climbing) and hot temperatures. There is a chance that the binding could cause discomfort or even impair breathing, and it may be necessary to subtly offer more breaks.

Young people who have not finished growing should not be wearing binders at all, as there is a very, very real risk of permanently deforming their ribs. For any responsible adult organisation to gloss over this as a "discomfort" issue, and seek to enable it further, is bloody irresponsible.

Ive been working with DCs and young people for long enough to remember when binding (of any part of the body) was treated as a child protection issue and resulted in a SS referral.
Has society changed so much that what was once viewed as dangerous is now viewed as a lifestyle choice?

fascicle :
"If a male person wants to live as a woman, what does he have to do?

It's down to individual choice, surely, as it would be for anybody born a woman. There are no generic answers."

-- But that (if you'll forgive me) won't do here, even if it's true.

On the one hand are those who say it's not possible, as we mean 'woman', for a man to be a woman because we mean by 'woman' the having of certain biological attributes and a certain personal history. So for a man to live as a woman in this sense can be nothing other than a man pretending in some way (dress, mannerisms, ...) That's clear and uncontroversial if we accept that biological/personal history meaning for 'woman'.

But also, in recent times, there are those who say, no, that's not we mean by 'woman' ... or, often, they say, that's not what 'woman' really means ... But, then, these people refuse to even try to explain what they mean by 'woman' (or what they think 'woman' really means).

So some people end up suspecting those in the second group don't know what they mean.

Do you see? If you could give us an example of what living 'as a woman' might be, it would help us know what you mean by it. In the absence of any such examples being offered, we'll surely end up thinking you don't actually mean anything that's at all different from pretending to be a woman by putting on a dress etc.

And, likewise, if transactivists can't give the terfs an explanation of what they mean by 'woman', terfs will see themselves justified in thinking the transactivists don't mean anything by their talk.

Of course we need more than 'a woman is whatever someone who says they're a woman is'. That just doesn't help. 'A climperclock is whatever someone who says they're a climperclock is' could be true, but it doesn't help us understand what 'climperclock' means, does it?

ArcheryAnnie If the reality is that binding occurs, what should their policy be? A quick google would suggest that the Scouts is not alone in the advice it offers.

"If the reality is that binding occurs, what should their policy be?"

Oh, I don't know - How about treating it like any other harmful practice to young people that would be actively discouraged, if not banned?

As there seems to be so much unhappiness, suicide attempts etc - could many of these young people or even older trans folk just be a bit unstable, depressed and to and looking for an answer and way to escape? Rather than them being in the wrong body making them unhappy, maybe they are just troubled and everything else is a sign of that. I don't know and not saying that's the case with all trans folk.

Do women fare better transing to men or do men fare better - is there a difference in the level of success and happiness between the sexes, I wonder.

Transgenderism has a high comorbidity with mental health disorders. Make of that what you will.

I think Hairy carrot pointed out the irony earlier of how angry and vocal some transwomen are about being made to feel vulnerable, embarrassed, uncomfortable if they are forced to use male toilers/changing rooms - without seeing the irony that they are enforcing just that on any woman or girl who isn't comfortable having men with penises in the female facilities.

Is that irony? Always get mixed up!

If a male person wants to live as a woman, what does he have to do?

Well, what makes the difference is that she gets seen as a woman and treated the way women get treated, because other people either believe she’s a woman, or because they know she has a male body but they still react to her the way they react to women. When other people react to you as a women then you’re living as a woman.

And to me that’s what feminism is really about. It ain’t what you are and it ain’t what you do, it’s what other people will do because of who they think you are. Feminism says it isn’t up to other people to put you in a pink dress because they think you’re a girl or to sneer at you for wearing a pink dress because that’s what girls wear. Or pay you less or talk down to you at the garage or whatever else.

Thank you for motivating me to look up Jane Elliot’s blue-eyes/brown-eyes workshop in Australia. I watched it on telly a long time ago without knowing anything about her. The video makes excruciating watching and Elliot scares the hell out of me herself, but it’s the nearest analogue I can get. When people identify you as a “blue-eyes” the actual colour of your eyes doesn’t matter. People aren’t even looking. Living as a woman is about living so that other people think you’re a woman.

Not of course that this has anything at all to do with the OP, whose DS has probably heard one of those rumours that fly around schools before residentials and who should either take his story with a large pinch of salt or (if he has actually got the right end of the stick) she should wait to be asked for her opinion by the parents of the girls who are actually involved. When they need her support they’ll ask. Otherwise the most likely label from talking to the school is a fool who takes overexcited teen rumours literally, while the second most likely label is a busybody and maybe - if she’s really unlucky - a prurient busybody.