To think that children will fit in around OUR lives, not the other way around?

[HonestQuestion]

I am sure I'm going to get flamed for this but maybe there will be some good advice too! (I have NCd)

DH and I were talking last night about how we intend to bring up children. We have seen friends and family where DC rule the roost - everything is organised around the children. The children aren't ever left to their own devices to play; the parents are constantly playing with them and distracting them with activities. The TV is always switched to children's channels, not the news or anything adult. Evenings with the family have to be run on the children's schedule for naps and snacks and feeding.

Even when they are in bed, the mums are held hostage to the DC speaking over the walkout talkie and summoning them to the bedroom plenty of times before they finally go to sleep. We meet up with our friends for lunch or dinner or a day out, and always seem to come home not really having had much of a chat or catch up with our friends - because the day or evening is always all about the children - we all have to be in their thrall!

It seems the experience of raising a child these days is so far removed from how DH and I were brought up. We remember being left to our own devices to play, watching the news and learning about the world from it, we remember that the adults ruled the house - my dad would never have dreamed of having kids' TV on all evening when he got home from work!

And it's so far removed from how we want to raise our children. We don't want to lose 'who we are' and what we find interesting. A friend of ours said on FB the other day that she is going on a mini break and leaving her DC alone overnight for the first time in 3 years! I can't imagine being like that! And I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

AWBU? I have my hard hat ready...

Hey OP, I've now RTFT there's my morning gone and I feel like you're getting a hard time from some posters - the whole "you're an unfeeling Victorian monster who doesn't deserve children" thing seems really unnecessary.

I'm at a similar stage to you. Partner and I have a full-ish life of friends, dinners out, movies, theatre etc. Friends are starting to have DC. While I know that children will turn our world upside down, some of the stuff I see our friends doing (which I never, never, ne-e-e-ver comment on to them), is stuff that I hope we won't do:

• Letting toddlers interrupt adult conversation repeatedly for trivial shit

• Spending the whole weekend ferrying the darling from - and this is a real example, with activities changed - Spanish immersion (8am), gymnastics (10am), birthday party (1pm), horseriding (4pm).

I bite my tongue when DC are fed in front of the TV with Winnie the Pooh / CBBC on - I don't like it but a) not my circus and b) I presume my friends have tried various things and this is what works, at least for when guests are around.

*whether it's important

And you see here's the thing those of you without kids don't seem to get.

So you bite your tongue that CBeebies is on, you don't agree with children going to lots of activities or having things other children have and you expect children not to interrupt?

Well, it's very easy to say what you DON'T want - but if you could be so kind as to explain how you are going to have young children who will sit quietly while adults are talking who:

• aren't watching TV
• don't have the latest toys/gadgets etc
• don't need an adult response to their questions and will accept that they can't interrupt
• don't need to be redirected in some way while you talk

Honestly, break it down for us. I have a pen and paper ready for your handy hints. You're not going to engage with them, distract them or use other things to distract them, but they're going to sit quietly without interrupting?

Sounds amazing. Please share your step-by-step operational guide. I'm waiting!!

Two things I didn't worry about back in 2003 or 2006 when my children were born- Instagram and iPhones. You'll be making it up as you go along just like the rest of us OP.

The difference is that those of us who will have children in our twenties in ten year's time will wax lyrical about how we never resorted to using [insert what ever is the latest thing in 2026] to keep our children quiet in our day.

but they're going to sit quietly without interrupting?

Or endangering life or limb or doing anything even vaguely annoying like knocking over drinks or banging on the table or just shouting really loudly.

(and very, very few families will argue that unrestricted internet access at any age is a good thing).

Another thing to consider here is that what you see as a guest, when your host is actually trying to arrange the context to get some time to talk to you, is that you might see a LOT more media use than happens normally.

My kids aren't allowed watch ANY TV before 5.30 usually, when they can watch a half an hour before tea while I cook. If you came to visit me for the weekend and I wanted to chat to you, they might be allowed to watch a lot more so that I could get a chance to speak to you.

Ds never interrupted as a toddler but that is because he is severely autistic and at that age was in his own world. I would have much rather he interrupted.

Sometimes they rule, sometimes we rule. It's called compromise.

Plus, you'll understand how much pleasure you get from making your children happy and seeing them smile, when you have them.

EssentialHummus - the being interrupted thing is something which obviously annoys you personally. But now I have a toddler regularly tugging at my leg saying 'mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy...' for the 20th time while I'm trying to gossip to 'Sarah' about what 'Jane' did last night there's a quote that keeps me sane:

“Listen earnestly to anything your children want to tell you, no matter what. If you don't listen eagerly to the little stuff when they are little, they won't tell you the big stuff when they are big, because to them all of it has always been big stuff.”

― Catherine M. Wallace

Is being told by my toddler that a blue car has just gone past actually any less important than finding out whether Jane did snog Bob in the pub last night or not?

... of course I couldn't go to the pub myself as I can't ask friends to babysit as they were all out at said pub!

There's a definite 'we don't have kids yet' versus 'ground down by the realities of parenting' dichotomy on this thread, isn't there?

OP, kids' needs are paramount. They learn, eventually, to delay gratification and behave as polite society would expect, but they're not born that way and, if they're not developmentally ready, they won't play that game.

OP, why have you been on mumsnet for years if you don't have children? Genuine question, I didn't even know it existed until I had DD1 and was googling for advice during night feeds (although that was 8 yrs
ago and it was much lower profile).

If I were you, I'd make the most of the child-free weekend while you can!

Reading some of the smug, patronising comments from sone parents on here reminded me of why, before I had kids, I ended up leaving a lot of friendships soon after they started having kids.

I'm not convinced that when this as yet unconceived child reaches 11 it will even be possible to buy a phone that only makes calls. I think they will probably be obsolete. If they aren't already

Lost. It's been years, 7 or 8 I think. At the very start, I was with someone and thought it was for keeps. We were house hunting and everything, until he ran off with a colleague. MN got me through it. Now I am with DH, we would have had children years ago but sadly it hasn't happened yet. We thought it would have happened by now. Hopefully soon.

My kids go to bed, and have always had a bed time routine which means my DH and I still have a relationship
We eat as a family as often as possible
No screen time during the week
Thursday is boardgames night
We have good manners and respect in this house

But our children are still the centre of our lives and they come first, right up until the point they don't need that level of care and attention. Putting them first doesn't mean overly entitled spoiled brats, it just means ensuring their needs are met first.

If you don't allow your life to change when you have children, you'll miss out on a lot.

^^This.

Oddly my IL were full of such statements like ones in OP.

I was going to be pushing prams up mountainsides - which was odd as I wasn't know for climbing then pre pg .

DH would have said he had a happy childhood but since having ours MIL has made so many statement it's clear she was very resentful of the impact he had on her life.

There is nothing positive she says till he was about 8 - when he was a latch key kid and pretty much on his own for entire days - he'd go out early and be back for dark they weren't really spending time with him.

They were surround by friend and family willing to babysit for them so they went out once or twice a week. They did couple holidays leaving DH with disinterested family his words or at scout camp.

Oddly they gate crashed our family holidays moaned we wouldn't pay to put our kids in the childcare so we could sit around and listen to them talk while in the pub . Obviously we said no and then they found out how much fun playing with our children could be .

From way they behaved after we became parents we both think it hit them how much they had missed by being so busy and carrying on like they did pre DH - there have been a few comments along those lines.

I know quite a few couples with one child and lots of support round to baby sit - it's the best situation for being able to carry on as before. The children do seem happy and well adjusted. At times I do envy them but on the whole time spent with the children and doing things they like and are interested by has been enjoyable and enriching to me which I wouldn't have believed pre children.

Well, I/we don't think that unrestricted internet access via devices at say 11 (for the sake of argument) is a good thing, where it's important for them to be on social networks or not. In our family alone we've seen the outcomes of having 10 year olds on WhatsApp and Instagram and it has ended in bullying and tears. At 11 or thereabouts, they will need a simple phone that can make calls to DH and I - that's about it. There's simply no need for anything more. So on things like that then I am quite set on it.

You can be as set as you like, you don't seem to have engaged with the possibility that such a device might not actually exist in a dozen years! Best save one and hope it still works.

But actually, on the rest of it, while you're being hopelessly naive and making proclamations about what your tweenagers will actually need from a position of total ignorance (on what planet are you qualified to make that assessment now?!) I as a parent of small children share your reservations. It's something that really frightens me, navigating all this stuff. I'm going to hazard a guess that you're old enough not to have spent your adolescence on MSN and burgeoning social media. I am too, I'm one of the youngest people to have missed all that. And it's terrifying. I can't imagine what fucking trouble I'd have caused and got into with What's App. I actually think maybe parents in their early 20s have an advantage over those of us in our early 30s and above because they've some experience of being children with it. I didn't go on MSN Messenger until I was 18 and had gone away to uni.

And it's so tempting to just ban it, and pretend they and you won't have to deal with it if you just say no. Meanwhile, they'll find other ways to use Instagram or whatever, borrow their friends devices, and they'll do it without you even knowing about it let alone supervising. Good chance they'll be more technically adept than you by that point too, and it gets ever more intrusive and difficult to exclude. It's terrifying. I wish your proposed solution was remotely viable, I'd do it too.

Ah, that explains it, OP - you must have joined similar time to me. Am very sorry to hear things have been so difficult but glad you are now with someone and planning children - and wish you well with it. I agree with the support thing I have found it a great support, don't post much but have learned so much. Sadly my children continue to thwart any attempts of mine to remain the same as I was but I live in hope that one day, they will all sleep and I shall be a new
Woman. Or they'll move out. Rather hoping the first happens first....

OP, if you are trying for a baby then I really do hope it happens soon for you.

Be less rigid in your thinking and expectations though if and when you do have a baby. Having children is a culture shock. There really is no way around that. They DO fit into your lives. You DO have to adapt and compromise too though. That is the crux of it.

right up until the point they don't need that level of care and attention

Mine are in that golden age when they need less attention - hence me having time to be on here. I've read few more years when teen years come that might change again - we have mixture of adult/children programs on now.

Yet one was a Velcro baby and toddler and rest did team work and problem solving from young ages and seeing no as a challenge still can despite wide range of sanctions and behavioural management techniques tried over time meaning I had years of having to do constant supervision of multiple small people which was at times exhausting - though often fun too.

The thing is, mothers (especially mothers) are villified if we don't put the needs of children first. You try smoking while pregnant, or going on hols without the kids, leaving a 10yo at home for 2 hrs, or not trying to get them into good schools. Look at the "My teen won't revise" threads on MN, some replies = "how Pathetic that you would give up on your child" . Any child who misbehaves? Always means parental failure (though SN usually excepted). "My child would never be allowed to do X" and lots of general clucking on MN over bad parenting.

The pressure of expectations on mothers is ridiculous. OP's perspective is just another variant on how to apply the pressure.

I don't think you're completely U to have an ideal of how you'd like to parent. Though you'll no doubt find it changes a fair bit when the children arrive! I was a bit like you and have certainly had to accept that my aims were not necessarily wrong, but definitely over - ambitious!

I'm a child of the 70s and in those days everything revolved around the man of the house. Children came second and the mother last. (I hated this hierarchy and it's one of the reasons I believe in gender equality with a passion. )
These days it's much more common for the children to come first and I'm not sure that's ideal either. I think all family members are of equal importance and their needs (and to some extent, their wants need to be finely balanced. Try as I might I often get this wrong anyway.

A few points from my own experience:
My two were good sleepers and would go to sleep upstairs at dinner parties, so it might be possible but it depends on the child you get.
I work full time and miss them in the week so I want to spend quality time with them at the weekend. I've gots lots of friends who are divorced/separated (and get eow off) or are sahp (and need "time off ") at the weekend and they do go out partying and clubbing regularly. I only go occasionally and that is by choice, because of our family dynamic.
Meals out are a minefield. I am strict but mine are very energetic and I can't make them sit still for more than 30-40 minutes or it becomes so stressful it takes all the pleasure out of eating out. Likewise we didn't go on holiday with either until over 2 as before that seemed pointless - spending thousands of pounds to get indigestion bolting down meals and frazzled with stress running after kamikaze toddler making a beeline for pool, road etc.
We take a lot of care not to spoil ours regularly with material stuff and treats. They get big presents for birthdays and Christmas and occasional special days out but most of the time we do park, rhyme time, national trust and local free events. Plus they have to do our stuff as well like go round supermarket, visit our friends etc. So to that extent they fit in with us but we try and balance it with some things we will all enjoy alongside what needs doing. That way days out and sweets really do seem like treats. (I admit that I hoped this would mean they appreciate things more but no, they are as rude and ungrateful sometimes as any other children! Like I said above, you think you've got it right and it just comes straight back to smack you in the face! )
Good luck OP, you're going to need it (no more or less than the rest of us - I mean that in the nicest possible way. )

I'd rather let my child interrupt the conversation once than deal with a screaming tantrum for the next half an hour because I told her to be quiet.

Well, I/we don't think that unrestricted internet access via devices at say 11 (for the sake of argument) is a good thing, where it's important for them to be on social networks or not.

Eldest is 10 and she doesn't.

They use laptops where we can see them.

Though had to change passwords to them as found younger child hiding with it upstairs to play games on. The school big on computers and encourage use of a multi player platform were not so keen on which they were downloading and playing. We run our own server when they play mine craft - so aren't keen on this game/environment at all as have no idea who is on it but they play it at school and it's a source of contention they can't at home.

She going to secondary in Sep so she'll be 11 then. She'l have some form of mobile - not sure what yet still discussing. Mainly as we want to know if she'll be late back or where she is as she'll be travailing under her own stream to and fro from school and will due to work and pick up of other children be by herself at home for some time.

Currently thinking about adding some parental protection controls - DH not keen - as DD1 may want lap top in room for homework then as well. Her friend who came round recently has more access to you tube than DD1 had laptop in her room as it wasn't practicable to keep checking up on what they were doing.

Social media isn't on her radar at moment that could all change in September - then it a game of keeping her safe without making her an outcast plus I can't control what she access at other's houses so preparation is key there.

I wouldn't disagree with the sentiments there - but how much actual control you have might not be as much as you assume.