To think that children will fit in around OUR lives, not the other way around?

[HonestQuestion]

I am sure I'm going to get flamed for this but maybe there will be some good advice too! (I have NCd)

DH and I were talking last night about how we intend to bring up children. We have seen friends and family where DC rule the roost - everything is organised around the children. The children aren't ever left to their own devices to play; the parents are constantly playing with them and distracting them with activities. The TV is always switched to children's channels, not the news or anything adult. Evenings with the family have to be run on the children's schedule for naps and snacks and feeding.

Even when they are in bed, the mums are held hostage to the DC speaking over the walkout talkie and summoning them to the bedroom plenty of times before they finally go to sleep. We meet up with our friends for lunch or dinner or a day out, and always seem to come home not really having had much of a chat or catch up with our friends - because the day or evening is always all about the children - we all have to be in their thrall!

It seems the experience of raising a child these days is so far removed from how DH and I were brought up. We remember being left to our own devices to play, watching the news and learning about the world from it, we remember that the adults ruled the house - my dad would never have dreamed of having kids' TV on all evening when he got home from work!

And it's so far removed from how we want to raise our children. We don't want to lose 'who we are' and what we find interesting. A friend of ours said on FB the other day that she is going on a mini break and leaving her DC alone overnight for the first time in 3 years! I can't imagine being like that! And I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

AWBU? I have my hard hat ready...

Probably already been posted but

"Before I got married I had six theories about raising children; now, I have six children and no theories.
John Wilmot

Hopefully you will have a child with an off switch, a mute button and a volume control - one of those children who is seen and not heard (and no doubt you'll manage to get pregnant to suit your timetable as well and have a straightforward pregnancy and easy-peasy birth) Presumably you already know you have a raft of relatives and friends queueing up to look after your little darling for your weekends away. Actually I agree with you that some parents are a complete pita (we knew one who refused to ever let anyone else touch her baby, wouldn't use a pushchair so couldn't really go anywhere as was completely exhausted lugging a toddler round in her arms, co-slept to child's timetable so in bed from about 8pm and up at 5.30am - she was at the very extreme end of the indulgent parenting spectrum) most are trying to do the best they can to fit having a baby into their lifestyle. No one who hasn't had a child can begin to imagine what it will be like - how much you will love them for instance (more than anything or anyone you've ever loved before) And blinded by love, reason sometimes goes out of the window.

DH once said something equally naive when we were expecting DC1 - he'd had a dog and thought that looking after a baby would be exactly the same. Oh how we laugh at him now.

Just one thing though - you said your 11yo won't have a phone (let alone an iPhone!) well the child that you would give your life for turns 11 and then can be expected to travel long distances to high school, even teaching them independence, you still want them to have a phone in case there's an after schoo club/detention/delayed bus. Otherwise you will worry for the half hour they are late. Most parents have old iPhones they give - or they buy their child a smart phone for their birthday.

I don't know of one of my 11year olds friends who have an old brick of a phone which can't access the web. They all have old iPhones or other smart phone brands.

Also children need to learn to use devices such as iPads. They use them in schools and it helps their learning of technology. Equally it gives you a good 20 window of quiet when they've had dinner and you just want to chat to your DH.

My issue with your post isn't your naivety- but the judgemental sneer from all the parents you think are doing it 'wrong'.

Good luck with parenting though - it's one hell of a ride, with more ups and downs that the big one at Blackpool.

I wouldn't say that our children rule our lives or our house, but it is certainly true that our lives revolve around them because they are the most important people in our world. There is a difference between these two concepts whether you see it now or not.

I know you'll think this is patronising but you can't possible know how you will parent until you are a parent. It doesn't matter how many nieces, nephews, godchildren, dear friends with kids you have: it is just different with your own children.

I grew up in the 70s and 80s. I was left to my own devices a lot of the time. In some ways it was good -we my sister and I had a close group of neighbourhood friends with whom we liked to play old fashioned street games. (You could, then, you hardly saw a car in the road during the day.). But in other ways it wasn't - I realised that my mum didn't really enjoy spending time with us, she didn't have the patience for it, and preferred to chat to the other mums in the neighbourhood when she wasn't doing housework. (Didn't do my self-esteem much good, although I knew she loved me.) Because of this we didn't actually know much about life, because we didn't absorb her knowledge about the world just by spending time with her doing ordinary things. There were a few dodgy occasions where paedo types lingered too long and close to the local kids and we didn't know what to do about it. We weren't equipped with the skills, despite all our parents assuming we were street-wise because spent all our time playing out by ourselves. We witnessed dodgy behavior by older teenaged boys at an early age eg drinking and smoking. Some of my friends had a try of this stuff when offered.

My dad came in from work and just wanted to read the paper in peace. He wasn't really involved in our life that much or interested in what we had to say, beyond things like teaching us how to ride a bike or attending parents evening.

All that means that I wanted to spend much more time with my own children and be closer to them. And we are a close-knit family. Their general knowledge is really good because they've always spent a lot of time with us and have learned a lot about the world from us just talking with them, and they aren't afraid to ask questions because they won't be told "because it just is", or "because I say so" like I was (don't think my mum could be bothered with long explanations).

I remember on a couple of occasions being put upstairs in a strange bed in a strange house at a party. I didn't sleep a wink, it was very unsettling. I didn't know what was happening or why I was there and when I would be taken home and everything smelled different. I remember the noise of people getting pissed downstairs and finding it quite frightening. So think on, OP, if you think you plan to do things like this. Some kids are sensitive souls and taking them here there and everywhere doesn't harden them up, it just makes them feel insecure.

My kids don't really play out in the street because there are too many cars so there literally isn't the space. There are a few kids that do but these tend to be the naughty kids really and the ones from families who don't really care what they're up to, and their kids don't seem to have many social skills and make a nuisance of themselves constantly knocking when we're having our tea or wanting to do something just as a family. (I'm not saying everyone who sends their kids out to play is neglectful; just that that's what it seems like round our way.)

My kids are older now - 10 and 12, and you know what, they are very pleasant to spend time with. Their general knowledge is great because since small they've spent a lot of time with us and we've enjoyed being able to explain things fully to them when they've asked a question. We haven't fobbed them off with a "I'm busy, I'll tell you later" if I'm reading the paper etc. (But they have been made to wait if I'm in the middle of speaking to a friend, they do need to learn manners!)

One of the saddest things I saw was at a restaurant pre-kids. DH and o observed a girl of about 8 or 9 being ignored by what looked like her mum and friend who were deep in conversation the WHOLE meal through. This poor girl - her face looked so sad each time she was told to get on with her drawing or whatever. She clearly was bottom of the pack in terms of importance, and this is what she will come to believe. Terrible for her self-esteem poor kid. I always wonder how she grew up.

I really think British families need to be a bit more like European cultures when it comes to including children in the family - they are PART of the family and everyone is included. Mealtimes are a family occasion. I do think there is a bit of old-fashioned "children should be seen and not heard" in your post, OP. It's quite an out-dated attitude to put your children's needs last. There is no reason to fawn over and mollycoddle children to the dentriment of good manners and social niceties - a happy medium can exist.

As a stepparent I'm going to pull out this thread the next time I'm bashed with the "you knew what you were getting into when you dated a man with children" line...

Any child you have requires a bit of flexibility in how you shape your lives - you are suddenly responsible for and sharing your lives with a (rapidly changing, ever developing, needy) human - it would be madness to think that they could just slot 100% into the lives you already have.

If you have a child like Ds, who is disabled, you will more than likely find that actually huge amounts of your and your other children's lives will have to be shaped around them, as their needs are such that they can't just adapt to whatever situation they are put in.

I don't think you're being entirely U

I've one DD who has been encouraged to play alone. We do things as a family but there are times when both DH and I are busy, in which case it's 'get on with it' - there are puzzles, construction toys, interactive things and TV, all of which she can play with. Or draw, or dress up, or play with soft toys, or listen to music...

I most certainly would not have a walkie talkie thing. DD is not good at settling at night but once it's bedtime, it's bedtime. If she needs the toilet or a drink of water, she can do that herself.

If we have friends over, then we try to have them arrive prior to her bedtime, just so that we have a little time for her to chat to them too - she likes talking to adults. That means when it's time for bed, she's not asking who's coming etc. Bedtime doesn't change when friends are over.

We occasionally go out, and have babysitters. Again, we usually have them arrive a little while before we go out, just so we've time to make sure DD knows who's looking after her etc. and that she's getting ready for bed when we leave.

We say no to things from time to time. We have house rules. We try to ignore bad behaviour and praise good, but we make use of the naughty step or withdrawal of privileges if necessary.

I have a friend, a very dear friend, who said much the same as you, Honest. Another friend of hers was pissed off that no children were invited to her wedding, and wrote her a fairly scathing and rather patronising letter about how she would feel differently and embarrassed about her refusal to entertain said friend's baby at the church, when my friend had her own.

Only... my friend did pretty much manage to stick to her plans, at least for the first couple of years. She had a pretty easy baby, and still mostly carried on with her social life, she had parents and PILs and other rellies around to babysit as necessary (when her DH wasn't available) and just carried on her normal busy routine. She allowed next to no tv, had set bed routines and all sorts - and it all worked out for her very well - right up until her DC hit 3. THEN it all went to shit for a while. (Not unsympathetic, I currently have my own threenager)

So it IS possible that your plans could work out for you - but even if they do in the beginning, be prepared for them to be upended at some point.

And good luck with it all

I've only read the first page and am smiling fondly at your op.

I thought very similarly to you when I was pregnant op, now I have a little giggle at my naivety.

How about don't make stupid judgements until you actually have children?

See Tempus I don't agree with people who do that to SM's. It is such a culture shock and you have to have the parents setting the rules even if you don't agree. I have some sympathy with SM's, especially if they don't have kids themselves!

The thing is, children have very different needs to yours much of the time. To ignore that is neglectful. Our children do not rule the house. However, their needs (not them) do dictate much of how we operate...as we are the adults and can regulate emotion and are more independent. There is much research that suggests that being somewhat more child focussed than you suggest in your OP us actually beneficial to the child, and as a diligent parent I can't imagine why you would want to ignore that.

They are people, equal to you. Your needs and wants do not trump theirs simply because you are an adult.

The OP's post just reminded me of a good friend who finally and blessfully after years of trying became pregnant. Her DPartner gave us the wonderful news and my DH said 'My only bit of advice is to do things your way and do what works for you'. The DPartner replied;'Oh, we have spent decades watching how our friends and family have got it completely wrong, so we will be fine'.

And he was serious.

Good luck with having the news on with constant back-to-back stories of Jimmy Savile, hostage beheadings, grooming footballers etc etc etc. We keep having to leap to turn the bloody news off every time we try and watch it and a DC comes into the room - and ours are 15,14 and 8!

The main things that prevent being like this 100% of the time are (with examples):

1. other people - you refusing to ever follow your children's whims when you are in public means usually the people around you suffer. Great e.g. last night. Did exactly as you suggested and went to friends and largely ignored dc while they played. Catch is, we have a one month old baby. I tried carrying on chatting and breast feeding but she refused to settle until I lay in a darkened room with her for half an hour when she fell asleep. Still meant most the night we continued as normal, but there's really not much you can do with an unsettled baby if they are demanding dark and quiet to get to sleep so they don't get sensory overload. It's a small sacrifice but you would probably right now see it as a bit
2. the can't be arsed factor - you've been wrangling small people in and out of car seats, cajoling shoes on and off, explaining why why why for the best part of 12 hours. Do you really want to watch the news enough to argue the toss yet again, or do you just put on paw patrol for hundredth time and quietly catch up with the Syria situation on your phone?
3. Experiences do change. So you like walking. It's your hobby. Great to continue that and the kids be damned. You may even be fortunate that your kids like walking too. BUT BUT BUT do you really think a walk in the woods is the same with said small person looking at every snail shell, finding the perfect stick, digging in every interesting looking crevice? You walk for five hours and cover roughly a km. It's like herding cats.
4. people are inherently selfish. So what you currently find fascinating subjects of conversation from your non child view of the world, your friends with children probably now find a bit dull couplesville, and vice versa. You probably think your conversation topics are scintillating and worldly but honestly I am often struck when I talk to people without children how much they talk about their work, their hobbies, the minutiae of their life. In fact more people I know with multiple children are ready to talk about anything except kids!!

There are things that you can do which will increase the likelihood of you being able to fit children into your life.

Live close to your family (or in-laws) and make sure that they are happy to look after your children. Hope that they stay healthy.

Earn lots of money - enough to pay for reliable childcare AND babysitters. And possibly cleaners etc. But in a job which doesn't demand really awkward hours, unless you can afford the space and fees for a live-in nanny, or have REALLY good family support.

Have children with someone who will share the caring responsibilities with you, taking shared parental leave and with both of you cutting your working hours/dealing with after-work household and childcare issues.

Have friends who are willing for your children to fit into their lives, too. Not everyone is happy to have a sleeping toddler in the house during their parties.

Live in a street with children the same age as yours who are allowed to at out.

If you do all that, and then have children who are healthy, easy going, low maintenance and you don't really care much about whether they do stuff like swimming lessons or sports or music class, then you might manage it. Just possibly.

by the way, despite the fact that we have 3 children, one of whom needs (and will need a long time into the future) a lot of our full time care, dh and I are still 'who we are', we still love music, talk about films (can't really go to them, but hey!) act like idiots when we are on our own. Our friends (those that matter) understand that Ds has to be a consideration when we arrange meeting up, that we can't just do things at the drop of a hat.

We are who we are, and who we were, but we have more in our lives now, kids aren't dis interesting things that just require entertaining - ours are the best people I know!

Creeping - I said no iPhones at 11. Certainly a very basic PAYG will be needed once they start becoming more independent.

And I agree with a PP. Our DS is 6 and was diagnosed as autistic last year. That means that our life has been changed by his needs to some extent..... we have had to upend our life in terms of accessing education that will nurture him, which meant moving and me changing jobs to one that pays less but is more flexible. It means that I have to work around his needs in terms of his ability to manage the outside world and I have changed my daily routine, how I shop for example, what activities we might go to. He is phobic about planes, so we plan a holiday abroad this year and I am doing masses of work preparing him for the trip etc. I know that some observers who do not understand what autism means for him think I am pandering. They are ignorant, and although it often upsets me desperately I mostly have to ignore it. (I sometimes vent on MN though). So, quite unexpectedly (no-one expects a child with additional needs!) my daily life has completely changed from the very driven, ambitious workaholic that I was before.

And I don't regret any of it for a second. :)

The comments about child-rearing in other cultures are really interesting. Certainly, we have noticed the difference in how our non-British friends seem to raise their children, definitely less pandering and more of a hands-off style.

Well at the moment you have no idea, because you aren't yet a parent.

So you'll find out, won't you?

Be open to the idea that all may not be as you expect and you will look back on this thread and cringe And bear in mind it's never a great idea to dictate to people who are in a position of much greater knowledge than you currently are.

Which cultures? What do they do differently?

I am interested because I have heard this before, but despite living in hugely mixed areas and having loads of friends who are parents from different European and Non European countries, the one thing I notice is that everyone brings up their children differently.

Of course you can insist your DC has only a very basic model phone. But you underestimate how important fitting in is to them and technology plays a massive part of that, in their lives.

Realistically, choosing what tv programme you watch isn't the half of it.

Having children will affect your household income, your career choices, your relationship and where you live. If you are coping with a young baby who wakes up 3 times a night and you have a toddler who gets up at 5, many of your decisions, which to outsiders might seem like letting your children control your life, will just be taking the line if least resistance because you are sleep deprived.