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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think a male paedophile rapist should definitely go to a male prison?

430 replies

HermioneWeasley · 04/03/2016 18:52

And it shouldn't just be "likely"?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

FFS.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
CoteDAzur · 04/03/2016 22:00

"Trans women in male prisons are, statistically, massively likely to be assaulted/sexually abused and I don't think that anyone deserves that."

I agree. Nobody deserves to be sexually assaulted and raped. Davina Ayrton would agree, too.

Oh wait.

whatdoIget · 04/03/2016 22:01

A. She identifies as a woman, so if she rapes a child with her penis, then it's a woman's penis she's raping with
Or
B. He's a male child rapist

Which makes sense and which is obviously a load of shit??

Valanice1989 · 04/03/2016 22:01

FFS. What is the point of these threads?
To draw attention to the fact that some activists believe biological males should be placed in women’s prisons? Why should that be hushed up?

Other than for lots of TERF gender critical feminists
Calling women TERFs just seems to be a way of trying to shut them up. It’s not going to work. Why is there no equivalent insult for men, even though they are the ones who commit violence against trans people?

to pop up and talk about how trans women are all men in disguise
What’s the difference between a man in disguise and an MtF? I’m not being sarcastic, and I’m not asking a rhetorical question. David Ayrton has put on a wig, changed their name to Davina, and announced that they are female. What is the difference between them and a “man in disguise”, in your opinion?

and it's a big conspiracy against women
Who stands to be negatively affected by all of this – men or women? What do men stand to lose by allowing FtMs into their locker rooms, their prisons, their sports divisions, etc.?

and someone can use the word "autogynophile" and explain how it is all a creepy fetish really
What’s wrong with using the word “autogynephile”? What’s wrong with explaining that it’s a fetish? Are you saying this is untrue? (Again, a genuine question.) Plenty of MtFs admit that their main (or even sole) reason for transitioning is that they get aroused by the idea that they are women, that they're actually perfectly happy with their penises, and that the "born in the wrong body" story is just a convenient myth.

because being a woman is all periods and babies and everyone feels suitably outraged.
Acknowledging that biology exists does not mean that “being a woman is all periods and babies”.

It is all totally predictable, pretty gross and makes MN look hideously bigoted all round.
Do you honestly think it’s hideously bigoted to believe that women don’t have penises, or that men don’t have periods?

Do you believe Ayrton should be put in a women’s prison? Why/why not?

attheendoftheday · 04/03/2016 22:01

So, is everyone saying they don't actually believe in people being transgender?

If so, why do you imagine so many people identify this way? Does it make their lives easier and happier?

You know people didn't used to believe in homosexuality at one point either. Or that women are as intellectually capable. This is just one more prejudice to overcome.

DianaTrent · 04/03/2016 22:02

Imagine you had a pens but otherwise felt exactly the same. Would you want to live as a man or would that not be OK?

I think that due to the huge amount of influence our gendered upbringing has on our personality, this is a really tough question. I'm sure everyone's personalities would be quite different if raised with the opposing gender's set of messages and expectations.

Personally, having had predominantly 'male' interests all my life I don't think I'd personally find it much of an issue. However, presuming that I did, whilst I might decide that my personality was so divergent from that expected of my sex that I might want to transition. I think I'd fight hard to try to become comfortable with being a gender non conforming member of my own sex first and would like to think I'd still be understanding of the fact that having a penis would make me unsuitable for certain spaces, and I can't imagine feeling the same hostility to the idea of equal but separate provision in these rare cases. Of course, this is exactly how some transwomen do feel, and I have no issues with them in the slightest. I don't think anyone is demanding that they 'live as a man' as in confirming to male stereotypes etc. though, are they?

HairyLittleCarrot · 04/03/2016 22:05

There aren't a load of souls waiting to be put into bodies and sometimes God is having a bad day and puts a girl soul in a boy body. Does anyone who thinks 'being born in the wrong body' is a thing not realise how properly not sane what they're saying is?

Perfectly put.

hedgehogsdontbite · 04/03/2016 22:08

I would love to know what right some women on here think they have to tell other people how they really think or feel about themselves.

I don't think anyone here thinks this. I think it's quite the opposite in fact. If a man thinks or feels that his is actually a woman, fine, crack on with. It only becomes a problem when that man tells me that I also have to think that he is a woman.

HermioneWeasley · 04/03/2016 22:11

attheend I'll answer your question, even thought you haven't answered any of mine.

Yes, of course I believe that some people are trans gender. I believe this is a condition called gender dysphoria where someone is unhappy conforming to the gender roles associated with their sex. There may or may not be a biological basis for this. There is certainly nothing in the way of brain based sex differences which explains it that has yet been found.

I believe that gender non conforming people should live their lives free of harassment or discrimination. I do not believe however that their dysphoria makes them the other sex, however difficult that might be for them.

I have a deformed spine. When I'm not in pain I enjoy being physically active. I could say I've been born in the wrong body. Biology deals some shitty cards sometimes. You have to deal with it.

OP posts:
Alisvolatpropiis · 04/03/2016 22:12

I believe in people being transgender attheendoftheday. I believe they have a right to live their lives as they wish and have legal protection. Granted I'd rather that legal protection didn't co-opt women's rights but when have men ever held back on taking away women's rights?

But the operative word regarding these people is trans. Being a transman or transwoman does not magically make someone actually a man or a woman. Because they are trans.

I am fully aware of transwomen (transmen being rather quiet, over all) who are rather more rational about their position in the world. They do not desire people who take leave of reality for their benefit, for starters. Alas, the very vocal minority within the very small minority is causing a great deal of upset and not without reason.

LurcioAgain · 04/03/2016 22:13

Yes, hedgehogs! For me it's like religious belief. I have no doubt of the sincerity with which they hold their belief (in god/ that they are women). I fully support their right not to be discriminated against in say, employment, because of that sincerely held belief. But when it comes to the point where it impinges on my rights - to free association, to not having to share (say) a prison cell with someone with a penis - there I draw the line. Biology matters. You can believe the earth is flat for all I care, but you cannot demand that I believe it too.

MetalMidget · 04/03/2016 22:16

I believe that transgender people should be recognised as the gender they identify with. I believe they should be treated with the same kindness and respect, and afforded the same rights as anybody else. We're learning so much about biology still that I wouldn't discount there being some sort of medical reasoning behind people being born in 'the wrong body'.

However, I don't believe that 'self-identification' should be held up as a legal thing. If you're transgender, then you seek to fully change your body to reflect that gender. If you just call yourself a woman because you wear a dress, makeup and your hair in a particular way (or not even that), without any plans for hormone treatment or surgery, then in my opinion, you're not transgender - you're a transvestite.

I wouldn't have a problem sharing a dressing room or toilets with a genuine trans woman (even pre-op, as I know they have to live as a woman for several years, having therapy and hormones, before being allowed surgery), but I would have a problem sharing with a man who thinks he can just say he's a woman but keep a fully male body with no intention to change.

VioletVaccine · 04/03/2016 22:16

SleepyBoBo

You know what, it's fine if people on here cannot respect people as they are. That's ok - it's just a case of history repeating itself.

Every Transsexual person seeking gender reassignment, has to attend extensive counselling, hormonal treatment, surgery, and will undergo gradual physical changes, before they even feel able to respect themselves for who they truly feel they are.
So why then, is it 'transphobic' to not have adapted and accepted in a much shorter timescale?

If it takes each person years and years to finally feel self acceptance, there shouldn't be an outcry it society doesn't do it in a day.

CoteDAzur · 04/03/2016 22:20

"So, is everyone saying they don't actually believe in people being transgender?"

No. Transwomen clearly exist.

What we are saying is that transwomen are not women.

I like to quote dictionary definitions on these threads because they clear the air and help us understand each other. So here they go:

Female: Of the sex that can bear young or make eggs.
Male: Of the sex that can make semen.

Woman: Adult human female.
Man: Adult human male.

Transwoman: Adult human male who "feels like" a woman.
Transman: Adult human female who "feels like" a man.

"why do you imagine so many people identify this way?"

Why do some people believe they are birds, cats, foxes, dragons, or horses? Why do some people believe one of their limbs doesn't belong to their body and beg doctors to amputate? Why do some people believe they are too fat and refuse to eat, sadly often causing their own deaths, even when they are just skin and bones? We can't answer these questions simply because we don't yet understand exactly how the brain works and how sometimes one's perception does not reflect reality.

attheendoftheday · 04/03/2016 22:22

There aren't a load of souls waiting to be put into bodies and sometimes God is having a bad day and puts a girl soul in a boy body. Does anyone who thinks 'being born in the wrong body' is a thing not realise how properly not sane what they're saying is?

Well no, I don't think that's how life is created.

But we know that brain structure is different between men and women and that male babies are exposed to testosterone in two separate bursts, giving the possibility that if only exposed to one burst a baby could have the brain structure of one gender and body of another

I am aware this is only one suggested way that transgender comes about and there are some other ideas too.

I appreciate that being raised as a different gender places trans people in a difficult situation wrt gender issues (typically because trans women may not have experienced the same prejudice as other women). But not all women have the same experiences, trans or otherwise.

To me, excluding trans women because some other women are prejudiced against trans people or don't believe transgender people exist would be like excluding black women because some other women are racist.

attheendoftheday · 04/03/2016 22:25

Why dosome peoplebelieve one of their limbs doesn't belong to their body and beg doctors to amputate? Why dosome peoplebelieve they are too fat and refuse to eat, sadly often causing their own deaths, even when they are just skin and bones?

So you think being transgender is a mental health disorder?

People used to say that about homosexuality you know.

BiologicalCrayon · 04/03/2016 22:27

Of course people can be transgender.

It doesn't actually make them the opposite sex though, that's nonsense. It goes against every single way we differentiate between the sexes.

Trans people should be able to live free from discrimination, but not at the expense of women.

sonlypuppyfat · 04/03/2016 22:29

Perhaps if they don't want to go to prison then they shouldn't break the law

BiologicalCrayon · 04/03/2016 22:30

AtThe there is no such thing as brain sex.

VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon · 04/03/2016 22:30

How do we know that the brain structure is different between men and women? What is different? Where do those differences come from?

There is no conclusive evidence that brains are substantively different whether they are in a male or female body at birth. They become different over time, largely due to hormonal differences and neural development over time (life experiences, aka socialisation) but different at birth? Evidence please.

WhereYouLeftIt · 04/03/2016 22:31

"But we know that brain structure is different between men and women and that male babies are exposed to testosterone in two separate bursts, giving the possibility that if only exposed to one burst a baby could have the brain structure of one gender and body of another"
Can you point me in the direction of the research suggesting this? It sounds interesting and I'd like to read up on it.

BombadierFritz · 04/03/2016 22:33

I personally do believe it is sometimes a mental health disorder or sometimes another aspect of asd. In young children/teens especially i think it is a consequence of ridiculous societal views such as liking pink and sparkles = girl. Sometimes it is another aspect of homophobia (see iran)

BombadierFritz · 04/03/2016 22:34

I dont believe in male/female brain either

WandaFuca · 04/03/2016 22:35

I’m in my 60s, and I saw racism, gay-bashing, lesbian-bashing, disablism, and so forth. I thought it was abhorrent that those groups of people were not protected by law. When transgenderism (then called transsexualism) was mentioned, I felt the same, that they also now should be protected by law. I don’t know if I’ve ever met a MtF transgender person (if I have, it wasn’t obvious), and I have known of a few online who were just trying to get on and live their lives.

But there was a thread here in June last year that raised, for me and many others, serious questions about the demands that some MtF people are making about being allowed into spaces previously reserved for women, i.e. biological women. Public toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, women’s Olympic events, prisons, and so on.

I hadn’t realised that most MtF people don’t go through reassignment surgery in the way I had previously thought. Certainly, surgery to transform a penis into a vagina is very difficult and doesn’t always have a good result, and is very expensive. I don’t know how many MtF have their testicles removed. I don’t know many MtF people who have been reported as undergoing surgery but only have breast implants – that seems to be case regarding Tara Hudson, who was transferred to a women’s prison, after much campaigning, despite previous violence convictions and a fully-functioning penis. In fact, there’s no need for a MtF person having any kind of surgery, or taking hormones, just saying they are a women is sufficient.

I’m retired from work now. My last job was working in a NHS hospital for a number of years. That hospital, like all NHS hospitals, worked hard to bring in single-sex wards, on the government-demanded standards of dignity. A couple of years ago, I ended up in hospital, in a six-bedded female bay. There was a toilet/shower area – three toilet cubicles, two shower cubicles – for women only. I assume there was similar for men only, certainly there were signs up that showed the men-only facilities.

What, now, does the NHS do with a fully-bodied male self-declaring as a female – because under the current legislation that is all that is needed?

This is why this subject keeps coming up on Mumsnet. And why it needs to come out of the Feminist section and to be in Chat and AIBU. It isn’t just a feminist issue, it’s something that all women should be aware of.

Statistics are already being skewed by violent crimes being recorded as female by self-identifying MtF. Statistics are already being skewed by self-identifying MtF after they’ve achieved CEO status. A self-identified MtF achieved the Woman of the Year Award. Next up will be women’s athletic records being skewed by self-identifying MtF.

I’d like to be supportive of MtF just trying, and struggling, to live their lives in peace, but I think both they and women are under a threat by a kind of strange activism that doesn’t appear to about any of us.

Italiangreyhound · 04/03/2016 22:37

SpeakNoWords yes I am aware what some would say. Very sadly I feel I cannot say what I really think easily on these issues because people will accuse me of being a terf! I have a number of trans friends on my Facebook page, and I am now cautious what I say because they may well ride in to argue with me. Generally, our arguments have been quite pplite and it is the non-trans friends who bound up to tell me how I should identify as 'cis', and to not do so is almost like being racist!

Fortunately, the law is much more complex than the internet would have us believe. Maybe the only way to be able to defend ourselves (as women) is to be classed as an in danger majority, that is what we are. Sad Angry

What about transsexual people who have gone to a great deal of effort to change their body and may be expected to share female only spaces with people with penises. I wonder if they feel this is very liberating for them too? Genuine question.

We all exclude people from some areas of our lives, I certainly would like all trans people to have safety and protection in their lives but that does not mean I think that anyone wants to use female only spaces like locker rooms/showers should be able to.

Sadly, I really feel this will impact very badly on the trans community where many people just want to live their lives. These very extreme cases are very unhelpful for ordinary trans people And throwing around the slur of 'terf' is only going to alienate people who are allies to trans people, like me!

BombadierFritz · 04/03/2016 22:38

Nowt wrong with gender non conformity either - i am pretty much totally non gender conforming and anti gender stereotypes

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