AIBU to think a male paedophile rapist should definitely go to a male prison?

[HermioneWeasley]

And it shouldn't just be "likely"?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

FFS.

Bombardier yes!!

It's a huge, Orwellian exercise in gas lighting. None of their arguments add up. They have no science behind them. Yet they have the ear of many governments.

I'm really interested in this debate.

I will 100%, always, support the right of any person to change to the gender that they feel they should be, if that is what makes them happy. It must be excruciating to know that you are born in the wrong body and as a society I am glad that we are making steps towards ensuring that all people are protected in that transition.

That said, I think it is dismissive of this plight to say that any person who claims that day to identify as another gender when they clearly pose a risk.

In this case, of course this offender should go to male prison. Had they been further down the path to reassignment, the argument would be different.

Can someone tell me what the definition of a woman is please?

How far down the path do you think, mooey? Bearing in mind not every trans oerson takes hormones, has surgery etc?

I don't understand the argument that TWs won't assault women in prison so that's ok. I can absolutely guarantee that my brother wouldn't either. That doesn't mean he should be allowed in women's space.

Women have a right not to share intimate space with men, regardless of whether those individual men pose a physical threat.

I would find it very distressing to share a cell with a man or shower in front of a man.

Mooey it's fascinating and terrifying in equal measures isn't it?

Can I ask what you mean when you say "born in the wrong body"? It's a phrase that's often repeated in these conversations.

How can a body be wrong?

"Women have a right not to share intimate space with men, regardless of whether those individual men pose a physical threat."

That's right, and here it is:
UNOCHR document detailing the human rights of prisoners, specifically, 'Women prisoners shall be detained separately from male prisoners' on page 14: www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/training11Add3en.pdf

Lets try bolding it...

can you define what a woman is, without using sexual characteristics or dresses and makeup?

and

what does you mean, in simple but sciencey terms, when you say "born in the wrong body?

still not expecting answers...

Unfortunately mooey there wont be a 'further down the path to reassignment' any more. It is now not about physical changes or hormone changes. Thats an old fashioned view.
For almost all purposes already it is self declaration. For prison it depends. In future, the latest report commissioned by the govt recommends self declaration only to get a grc, so all these male rapists and paedophiles and murderers talked about on this thread, currently still in male prisons, would all be in female prisons in future.

It must be excruciating to know that you are born in the wrong body

Can you explain how people are born in the wrong body? What process do you think has happened for this to be the case?

kua said:

"Tabsicle So what are you personally doing to prevent male on male assaults in prison"

Which seemed ridiculous to me. As it happens, I haven't worked with male prisoners. I have worked in therapy and rehab with female prisoners but that isn't the point. I don't think I need to he personally working to stop violence in male prisons to think that is a bad thing, any more than I need to be spending my Saturdays at a food bank to think that hunger is a bad thing.

eatingworms - I have explained already. I don't think that precedence should be established by extreme cases. Do I massively care about protecting violent sexual predators? Not hugely, although I don't think that "rape someone and get raped yourself" is exactly reasonable. I do think that considering the stats on violence against trans women in prison it is unreasonable to establish a precedent that a trans woman who is found guilty of a non-violent crime is immediately put at risk. I think it is also unreasonable to establish a precedent which basically says "trans women are only women conditionally". Either we, as a society, respect their gender identity or we don't.

And kua - I have been on MN with various names for two years now. I read more than I post for various reasons. I'm also a woman, I think I'm entitled to post, but I didn't see myself as telling you to solve all the problems in the world. Just campaigning to make the world a nastier place seemed a bit of a shitty thing to do which is how I see these threads as going.

But fair. I have said my piece and I don't think I'm changing anyone's mind so I shall leave you guys to it.

The difficulty is that there isn't either a clear definition of gender or a point at which somebody can be said to have changed sex or gender.

We need to be able to have this discussion openly, even though that may cause hurt to people who are trans gender. Instead the government and other organisations are rushing towards self identification without explaining why, what it means or whether the consequences have been considered.

Re: earlier comments about discrimination against gay people, the definition of homosexual has been to be sexually attracted to members of your own sex.

However, if gender is fluid and overrides biological sex, what does that mean? Are you a lesbian if you identify as a woman but have a penis and have sex with women? Are you a bigot if you are biologically a woman and a lesbian but you don't want to have sex with somebody who has a penis, even if they identify as a woman?

Gender fluidity questions the definition of homosexuality as much as it does women.

I think that if you don't want to be put in a prison which does not alone with your choice of gender, then don't commit a crime

Tabsicle, if you you want people to respect gender identity, you need to be able to explain what it is, why it is important and why it is relevant to situations where women are treated differently because of their biological sex, not their gender identity.

Tabsicle, what nasty people we are, wanting to prevent female prisoners from having to share rooms and a shower with a convicted rapist. Just like those nasty women 100 years ago who wanted to ruin everything by getting a vote like the gentlemen. FFS.

All the recent cases of TW being sent to male prison had committed violent crime and none of them have had GRS: Tara Hudson, Vikki Thompson, Clare Derbyshire, Davinia Ayrton.

Not sent to lynda, forced to go to. Dont forget the emotive wording, its the crux of the issue

If a person is a good person then ridiculous as I find it, I may go along with the farce that is referring to a "he" as a "she". If it makes him happy why not.

However - creatures such as this Ayrton thing deserve no such respect. I don't care how it dresses or how much Touché Eclat it wears. It's a bloke.

Good point, Beyond.

I missed Joanne Latham off my list.

I have still never come across a proper explanation about what makes a lot of these transwomen 'female' other than just 'they say they are so so they are'.

What if I suddenly decided that I identified as a 6ft, leggy, stunningly beautiful supermodel, and that i had been born in the wrong body, that body being that of a short, fairly dumpy, average looking woman? Would i be able to go to London fashion week and demand that they allow me to walk the runway because 'I am a supermodel'? And that anything else would be discriminatory?

I am very much of the 'do what makes you happy as long as it's not.hurting anyone else' school of thought. So if a man wants to wear dresses and make up and whatever else he perceives as 'womanly' and wants to be called 'she', but does all of it just getting on with their lives and not impacting anyone else, then I'm all for it.

It's the entitlement of the few that really gets me, and the worrying thing is that in society's scramble to be liberal and 'right on', this entitlement means that some women's rights are being overlooked. I was reading the 'Exposing Britain First' FB page a few months ago and they were talking about Tara Hudson and a couple of.people piped up that she should go to a man's prison and were branded 'bigots' by EBF. Now the people.who run that page are normally.very level headed people who are able to give critical thought to things, but I just don't think that a lot of.people.have thought things through on this issue
Having said all of this, I do think that a few comments on this thread verge on transphobic, and ignore the fact that there are plenty of.transwomen out there who, while they would.like to be referred to as 'she', aren't making wild entitled demands and just want to get on with living their lives without judgement.

Sorry for the shocking grammar in my last post!

I had a similar experience on the "women against ukip" page on fb. They only ever share immigration or ukip related stuff, then one random tara hudson article with a shit load of virtue signalling comments.

For whoever asked about TWs raping women in prison:

www.smh.com.au/news/national/did-hall-get-fellow-prisoner-pregnant/2006/09/21/1158431837244.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525441/Transgender-murderer-Paris-Green-moved-womens-prison-sex-inmates.html