To think there is very little benefit in earning more than 50k

[ReallyTired]

Loss of child benefit and now reduction in pension tax relief makes hardly worth bursting a gut to earn over 50k. People who earn just over 50k are generally the work horses in skilled jobs that ecomony needs to grow. Given that such people will be saddled with high student loans in the future, what will senior teachers, doctors gain from all their hard work?

"hard work pays off"

It really doesn't for people in ordinary jobs. Many people are in jobs where overtime is not paid and there are no prospects for promotion. Working hard will make no difference.
What is well paid is having skills that are in demand on the labour market and that not many people have.

Want2b, that's the point I think - it's a stepping stone wage point.

These points happen at various places from unemployed vs NMW job right through to the very top tax bracket.
It's at each of these points that you decide whether it is 'worth' pushing on or not.l (worth being not just more money, can more/less family time, travel, extra perks etc).

The most determined, talented and ambitious push on and everyone else drops off at various points on the way.

And what Gwen said - skill set determines your peak wage too, no matter how hard you work.

Agree with gwen as well

Hard work does pay off. If you don't work hard even in a minimum wage job you get the sack or find it hard to get the next job. Anyway the more slackers in a sense the better as it leaves the field wide open for us hard workers to get ahead.

It really doesn't for people in ordinary jobs. Many people are in jobs where overtime is not paid and there are no prospects for promotion. Working hard will make no difference.

I'm not convinced this is true. At the low-paid end of the spectrum, you have some pretty abysmal work ethics (not a judgement, just a statement of fact) and there's opportunity to mark yourself out as someone with potential. I'm sure it's hard to summon the will when it's a really crap job, but not impossible.

Can you give an example of a job where it's impossible to advance?

The most determined, talented and ambitious push on and everyone else drops off at various points on the way.

This is what happened to me. The money was enough, the hassle at the next level above was very off-putting, and I've kept at the same level for a few years. The downside though is the risk of losing motivation without the urge to push on to the next level.

But I don't feel the need to start a thread whining about how hard done by I am. I had the luxury of choice and I chose. Lucky me.

If you are an underling, your hard work, dedication and talent will bring prosperity and success.

To your employer.

I think the lack of scial mobility is showing that hard work doesn't pay as such.
Unless of course you consider that most, if not all, people who are at the lower end of the scale wage wise also are the ones who never work hard....

Unfortuntatly, the meritocracy we are supposed to have in this country isn't what they tell us it is.

People who start with nothing rarely arrive at the top as millionaires.
Not wo a good education (given by their parents, not just 'private' education but also the opportunity to talk about different subjects, what happens at school, go to museums etc etc), some networking opportunities (eg the possibility to do some placemnets at the 'right place' or to do an internership even if you aren't paid etc etc).
Having the 'right' training, the opportunity to retrain later on etc... is a privilege as such and will make a huge difference.

And then even hard work will not be enough to be promoted.
Eg when I was working in a factory, some of the people of the shop floor (MNW type of stuff) were hard working, conscientious etc... They knew exactly what they had to do, the product they were working on etc.. Next step on the ladder for them? Being a team leader and organisig peole around their work.
Would all of them been able to do that? NO because the skills needed to do that were vastly different and they didn't have the knowledge or the ability to do so. Lacking basic skill such as fluent reading/writting and numeracy is already an obstable. Then they were missing skills that are actually learnt at home on organisation, self organisation or what is losely called 'people skills'.

Another example for me are some soletrader such as a plumber. The type who does his job very well but is completely scattered, has to go back home 3 times because he is misisng tools, hasn't planned ahead etc... It's not the 'working hard' (ie putting the hours, doing the job well, getting recommendations) that is missing, it's the 'working well', skills that somehow are assumed to be known by people and aren't always.

I never understand these threads

Huge swathes of jobs pay minumum wage

Not everyone can be promoted into higher paying jobs if the spaces arent there

Check out your local tescos, masses of cashiers and shelf stackers, a few managers

Obviously someone could be promoted but if the place of work has one manager to 20 staff, all 20 could work as hard as possible but there will only ever be one managers job they can take

Would all of them been able to do that? NO because the skills needed to do that were vastly different and they didn't have the knowledge or the ability to do so. Lacking basic skill such as fluent reading/writting and numeracy is already an obstable. Then they were missing skills that are actually learnt at home on organisation, self organisation or what is losely called 'people skills'.

This is not symptomatic of the gulf between state and private (which this thread seems to have moved onto for some reason) but rather substandard eduction. I'm sure it's true that you wouldn't find many privately educated adults who have this issue, but they're in the minority among state educated people as well.

If you are an underling, your hard work, dedication and talent will bring prosperity and success.

To your employer.

Employees have freedom of movement. Are you suggesting that businesses conspire to prevent competition for employees?

Apple I'm not saying that it's an issue with private vs state education.
I believe these are skills learnt At Home. And that usually means that people who are coming from more disadavantage background are aslo missing on a lot of 'teaching' done at home by parents who have been either taught at home by their own parents or at school/apprentship if they have been very lucky to meet somone who could properly guide them.

I'm not even sure these are skills can be taught at school tbh.

rufus good point re the impossibility for everyone to 'move up'.

Apple I'm not saying that it's an issue with private vs state education.

OK, sorry. This thread is a bit confusing.

I believe these are skills learnt At Home. And that usually means that people who are coming from more disadavantage background are aslo missing on a lot of 'teaching' done at home by parents who have been either taught at home by their own parents or at school/apprentship if they have been very lucky to meet somone who could properly guide them

LoveBoursin I agree but (sadly) I think this is the logical outcome of a free society. Not everyone is going to be a great parent.

It's true that it's not possible for everyone to move up the management chain. That said, what's to stop someone from retraining in a skilled trade?

I agree with a lot of what has been said on this thread with respect to how privilege perpetuates inequality (and show me a parent who isn't busy conferring privilege upon their own child, please?) but I don't think it's true that one's fate is stacking shelves at Tesco in the absence of enormous or even modest priviledge.

"what's to stop someone from retraining in a skilled trade? "

Lots. Not everyone is good at that kind of thing. My brother tried carpet fitting, but he just wasn't good enough. There's no way I could be a plumber, for example.
Apart from talent there's also money. A person with an adult's responsibility can't afford to drop everything to become an apprentice.

"
Can you give an example of a job where it's impossible to advance?"

Most admin jobs. Any job supporting a certain profession that you cannot just enter by working your way up. You can work as hard as you want as a hospital porter, you're not going to be consultant even after 50 years. You might make it to head porter, but that would be based on having leadership skills, not on how hard you work as a porter.

There are people who are happy bring the hospital porter and some unhappy hospital consultants. Success in life is more than how much money you earn. Your hospital porter in Swansea might have a better quality of life than someone earning 50k in London.

"There are people who are happy bring the hospital porter and some unhappy hospital consultants."

Of course ReallyTired, although I think many people would be happier with something in the middle i.e. something with some kind of challenge, but not extremely long hours. That wasn't the point I was making though, it was in response to this idea that you can get ahead by working hard even if you start at the bottom.

Stop saying 50k in London is a bad salary, its far higher than the median!

It doesn't pay for what it does in the North East, or Birmingham, but its not bad, and there is NO HARDSHIP!

And if just your husband's income of £50k really does seem to be such a paltry amount then perhaps get a job yourself to swell the family coffers.

I do have a job. Our family coffers are perfectly fine. We have a good quality of life. My husband had chosen not to take a 55k job because it would not improve the quality of his life. The extra money is not enough to justify the additional stress and effort.

What is a smart choice for one person is not necessarily a smart choice for another. The hospital porter who lives in Swansea may well find other ways of getting interectual simulous other than work. Some people have a life outside work.

Well all is good then.
It's a perfect example of how people make decisions at each transitional pay point as to whether or not to push on.

Some choose to remain at sub £40k, some sub £50k and so on.

Everyone has their tipping point where they feel it's personally not right for them to keep striving upwards.

Sometimes quality of life wins out over money.

"The hospital porter who lives in Swansea may well find other ways of getting interectual simulous other than work. Some people have a life outside work"

We spend most of our waking life at work though. Even if you're working for only 7 hours a day, a lot of the hours outside the 8 you spend in bed are spent getting ready for work and resting after it. There's a limit to how much time you can spend on hobbies.

Hard work pays for everyone though as if you turn up at work late and skive around you get the sack which is not a great outcome unless you are that Italian man who when found to be ready for his long serviec medal they discovered had not been to work for 6 years and yet been paid.

I feel the loss of music, drama, art, dance and lack if decent PE is a disadvantage for state schools. However it is not insurmountable. The children of poor immigrants often find a way.

What makes you think these subjects aren't done well in state schools?