To think there is very little benefit in earning more than 50k

[ReallyTired]

Loss of child benefit and now reduction in pension tax relief makes hardly worth bursting a gut to earn over 50k. People who earn just over 50k are generally the work horses in skilled jobs that ecomony needs to grow. Given that such people will be saddled with high student loans in the future, what will senior teachers, doctors gain from all their hard work?

Oh dear really tired in contrast all private school students speak wonderfully, no braying yahoo voices to be heard there oh no.

In reality though, due to the cuts in funding state schools are unlikely to be able to fund Latin teaching.

I don't know of many where sport, drama and music are not available though so not sure what you are discussing there.

Finally your remark regarding immigrant families "over coming" suggests that you still believe your hard work and correct choices mantra, even though it has been thoroughly disproved as the only factor influencing success here. Its patronising and your dogmatic adherence to this creed suggests a distinct lack of congestive ability.

Cognitive lurked?

(I suspect the autocorrects of the world are trying to muster a coup this morning )

ReallyTired - do you work yourself, or is it just your husband?

ha! Goose, yes cognitive, how that gets changed I don't know.

First world problems!

Wow. Slightly saddened that some of the comments on here have leapt to the rich/poor debate, as I think OP has a really good point.

Full disclosure, I earn 6 figures, and DH also earns 6 figures. We both came from v ordinary backgrounds, my father was always under threat of redundancy, can recall mum getting mop as a christmas present etc, so have seen that side of life etc.

I have worked incredibly hard to get where I am (including frequent all nighters) and putting off having children. That's not to say there aren't less well paid jobs where you work equally as hard, but it is to say that most people (again) in well paid jobs will have worked really hard (at school, uni and when in role) to get there.

At present we are expecting no 2. I work 65-75 hours, plus commute. In a job which I have limited security in (as is common in my industry, but that's the deal). We will need to move house in the next two years as will run out of room, so have done some preliminary looking and, to the posters original point, the option which makes most sense is to move out of the area and take (much less) well paid jobs. If we try and stay in the area, we can get more space, but will probably have to pay for schooling (and yes, I recognize I could send DCs to underperforming schools miles away which we would probably be allocated to, but I choose not to and consider myself lucky to be able to make that choice). Move a little further out (ie 3 hrs commute a day), and probably one of us will need to stop work/try to work locally if we are to see children/each other, with corresponding increase in hours/commute for other.

By far the best option is to buy mortgage free in an area with less oversubscribed schools, near family, and take jobs which (whilst not 9-5) do at least mean with a shorter we see each other and our children.

This situation will only get worse for our children, until the government and businesses take action to be less south east centric, to provide tax breaks for childcare, and to not expect as a matter of routine employees to work 60 plus hours a week on a permanent basis (there are laws in place to prevent this but are not enforced).

The saddest thing is the impact that this is has on women, gender pay and men (in terms of take up of patenrity leave, part time working). It forces couples into choosing one (often the man) as the sole earner, of my (brilliant) school and university friends who now have children, I am the only one working full time at a senior level - its just not worth it.

No, that's the problem - just lack of knowledge! Most people who sing latin music haven't studied latin. I haven't. You manage fine without it. In fact surely most even state schools sing adestes fideles in latin at least the first verse at Christmas?

Hard work has never been disproven as not working anywhere! No one on the thread has said it is the only thing that matters. I've also mentioned height, IQ, genetics, good looks. All these things feed in to success. However hard work does pay off. Obviously the more people who think it don't the better for those of us who do work hard - let us keep it our secret so we can soar whilst others don't. I have no axe to grind here - either I help others by telling them how to get on or they don't listen, don't get on and those of us who work hard do better than they do. I win either way.

Why are the arguments on this thread from those downplaying the importance of background so rubbish? They seem to be based on anecdote ("I am proof of my point"), made up facts ("Richard Branson" - snigger), and misrepresentation (many posts).

It's the problem of arguing from a position of faith I suppose.

I think everyone is in agreement on that though Deo.
Hard work, ambition, determination, drive and self belief will never go unrewarded - it's the refusal to accept that that is all that is required.

I said earlier in the thread the natural selection of those that can't/won't put in the extra will fall off as you go higher and the ones at the top are there for a reason.

It's the assumption that there is 'little benefit' in earning £50k because you are not any better off.
The £50k point one of many transitional points where the decision to push further or not is made.

lurked Nothing to do with luck in me getting the job. I was qualified for the role having completed the necessary credits for the CPA license. I demonstrated some ability in that I passed one part of my CPA exams. Also I had a reference from a client who to this day supports my career. No one at my level has a reference from a client. It demonstrates an ability to form a client relationship.

As to my being pregnant, I told them I was pregnant before accepting the job and have them the option to not hire me. The hiring partner insisted that I was hired. She called me herself and said that she recognized I had talent and they were looking at the long term value that I brought to the group.

There was little luck involved. In fact after I started I went out to a client where the person running the audit was also a new hire and completely overwhelmed. I got my work done and theirs too while I was 8 months pregnant. I also took the remaining parts of my CPA exams, taking the final exam on a Sunday (I was working on the Saturday) when I was 34 weeks pregnant. I had gotten up at 5am to get to the testing center 2 states away for a 9 am exam start.

You seem to ignore the fact that much of my luck isn't luck but down to me motivating myself to achieve. I don't resent paying taxes at a higher rate. What I resent is others, such as yourself, making assumptions about how easy it is to become and maintain a high income. Also, higher income comes with a price. During the early years of DC that's childcare and later you pay in terms of family time with your OH nearly always having to compromise on their career to support the higher earner.

In all seriousness, what do you think gives a person charisma? This article is interesting.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/communication-success/201406/how-strengthen-improve-the-sound-your-speaking-voice

Successful people are prepared to learn. They don't tie themselves in knots with jealousy about private education. Private school pupils benefit from singing because they learn to control their breathing even when nervous. They learn to make their voice resounate so that they can fill the room without needing to shout. Subtle things like speaking from the diagraphm makes for that deeper richer tone that many sucessful people have. Not using a monotone voice makes people want to listen.

Rather than screaming it's not fair it's better to look at other ways of giving children so advantages other than private school. My daughter's state primary has employed a vocal coach to improve the speech of children in key stage 1. Most of these children do not have speech and language problems in a medical sense. They also have a subsidised after school drama club which parents pay a modest fee and it's very over subscribed. Working class children enjoy speech and drama sessions as much as rich kids. Six weeks of being taught how to speak better has improved the children's spelling no end. The children have not lost their accent, but they do speak with clarity.

It's a pity that other state school heads do not have the same level of bravery to employ a voice coach for the children.

I have never typed "are you on glue?" on MN, but I am SO tempted.

State school heads are unlikely to have the funding to do so.

No one has screamed its not fair, it was a point made that the "effort" mantra is in accurate.

You are the one tying yourself in knots here trying to justify your points by changing the argument.

Want2b, I've never stated my income on here, in fact both DH and I are higher rate payers, and have been for a long time, DH even earned enough to class him in the 50p rate.

I have never said it doesn't take effort but repeatedly said that it isn't just effort that it takes, luck and circumstance play a major part.

You two actually just seem to take the points you want to and twist them to your own ends.

Well, I'm a bit late to this thread but want2b your posts are so unbearably self-promoting that whatever point you've tried to make is certainly lost on me.

I think YABU. I haven't read the whole thread but it's not just 50k. DP earns 45k and since getting the promotion he has much greater responsibility, works much longer hours and sees only about 40% of the increase as he's now in the higher tax bracket and has increased student loan. Is it worth it? Well yes of course because that 40% is better than nothing and if he didn't want to put in the extra hours he wouldn't have gone for the promotion! Yes it sucks at times not seeing him as much but it was too good an opportunity for him to turn down.

Want2b
You are insufferable.

Your particular skill set allows you access to those levels of income.
Well done for choosing that path & well done for having talent in that area.

My skill set is different. I was an aircraft engineer until unexpected ill health put paid to me continuing in that career.
If I could have continued in that role, I could easily have taken my earnings up into the high tens of thousands, but that would have required me moving (yet again) for work and also working away from my children (again).
I didn't want to do this, so made the choice to remain at middle income level - until my health put a stop to it completely.

As a hands on engineer I worked (physical work) up until the last Friday before I gave birth (with both children).

I am a huge advocate of hard work and ambition, but I am not narcissistic enough to assume that everyone who isn't a higher rate tax payer is just not trying hard enough.

ReallyTired, do you work?

This thread is utterly fucking bonkers.

Please don't stop. Tell us more about how singing in Latin creates better human beings...

Is this a wind up?? In times of austerity with average earnings down.....I think I'd cope on £50k. Women in general are shafted by the system - we can't win - work and barely see your kids, don't work and lose money (and status sometimes). I would, however, love yo be able to post that I was earning £50k!!!!

Clarissa69 - I very much agree that "the system" presents women with highly polarized economic and family choices, yet women receive constant criticism when they don't manage to balance their lives across multiple parallel projects.

No one at all on here is saying it is just hard work but some people seem to want to pretend thatr is what we are saying, those of us in the work hard camp. I also said it helps if you are tall or look good. No one picks up that - they only pick up on the class privilege points.

I agree with ReallyTired's comments above. It was what my mother tried to do to her classes of 40 in the 1950s in the North East. You don't moan. You just act.

By the way singing complicated church music in parts is extremely good for primary age children and by the way anyone at a state school which doesn't offer it try your local Cathedral or even C of E church. On Radio 4 this morning was an item about how learning the piano (and it would apply to other instruments) helps your brain. It is not a joke that the added extras are done by the private schools. They are genuinely good things to do as is a regular run and getting out of breath which a good few primary schools are now imposing on children - run a mile every lunch time. Costs nothing and might help fat teachers get thinner if they have to keep up and follow the children.

My son (private school) is currently volunteering in a local state school. The biggest problem he finds is the poor communciation skills (which in part is because of the huge immigrant population we have here) but it 's also the poor English and inability to be understood even of those children born where with English speaking parents. He doesn't of course teach them how to speak - he is just hearing reading - but it is a noticeable difference which we could easily over come in state schools where pupils have this problem.

So I think we are all in agreement - hard work is not the only factor (but it certainly helps). I think working smart not just hard though is also important. I didn't pick cleaning rather than law as a teenager because I know the hourly pay differs hugely between the two jobs (although as a mother of 5 I do God knows how much cleaning as well as do most of us).

Anyway all good fun.

(If you don't want the latin there is always Handel and music is so cheap these days. I used to cycle to the town to score the second hand music shops as a teenager. Nowadays my son can get much of it free on line . He just signed up a service for only £20 which gets him almost all the sheet music he wants. The strong will of the British working classes to better themselves and go to night schools and to read all the wonderful works of literature and learn about music and all the rest seems to have been lost and yet it doesn't need to be and hopefully it isn't lost).

Many private school pupils affect a gravelly drawl which makes their speaking voice unpleasant to listen to....

"You don't moan. You just act." Re enforcing your get on your bike philosophy, further to this you pay for your child's education, which means you have acknowledged the existence of the opportunities granted. Please don't preach when you do this, its slightly hypocritical. You can state being good looking helps, but not as much as the opportunities you have bought, look at the data presented above, look at the Sutton Trust studies, none of it presents the idea that you do, in fact quite the opposite.

I'm serious though, your suggestions for "improving" state schools, where is the funding for this? Do you realise what government is doing to the funding?

There are some really good state schools out there.

My youngest will be joining his big brother at our local bog standard Comp this year.
Interestingly the 'nice' school in the next town along is oversubscribed, but our Comp is not - yet the Comp is producing more really able and ambitious pupils.

This (I think) is because they put a huge emphasis on self responsibility.
The pupils get a one to one appraisal each half term (much like being at work), where they are debriefed on how they think they are doing vs how the teacher thinks they are, and how they think they could improve and what strategies they think would work (with guidance from the teacher).

They have extra curricular classes in sport, music & drama as well as those included anyway and also have a well-promoted and attended homework club.

We are very lucky that the school is full of motivated and interested teachers that do far, far more than they have to.

Again, the element of luck is involved, because the last 2 areas we lived in had not so good schools and I would have had no choice other than to have used those schools.