To think there is very little benefit in earning more than 50k

[ReallyTired]

Loss of child benefit and now reduction in pension tax relief makes hardly worth bursting a gut to earn over 50k. People who earn just over 50k are generally the work horses in skilled jobs that ecomony needs to grow. Given that such people will be saddled with high student loans in the future, what will senior teachers, doctors gain from all their hard work?

Many, many very wealthy families, mth ti.es wealthier than us, have had their applications denied at DS's school so it isn't just about what money can buy.

I can only base my opinion on one outstanding state comp, one lauded ny the Sutton Trust. It was so unspeakable we removed our dd. Perhaps, had we encountered teachers like you, we might not have.

Ultimately, ds, who like his father has a brain the size of a planet, would have succeeded wherever he was sent. DD who doesn't but is applying to Durham, UCL, Edinburgh, Bristol, might not have. Do I regret pulling her out and paying - no, I certainly don't. But I regret deeply that I had to to allow her to maximise her potential. I feel deeply sad that girls in her year may not do as well becUse their parents couldn't but I still think it is,state education that needs to change rather than the independent sector.

We honestly left the state sector in absolute shock at the dismal academic, social and moral standards. Previously lauded school with 8 to 9 applicants per place. Utterly frightening and thank goodness we had the means to move her. THIS SCHOOL WAS JUDGED OUTSTANDING IN 2012! Says everything anyone needs to know about the parlous state of secondary education in the UK.

State education is not in a parlous state, for evidence of this see the examples of the studies that find that state educated children out perform privately educated ones at university.

You don't get this do you? You have just confirmed your purchase of privillege by infering that your daughter is not as bright as your son but is still applying to a raft of Russel Group univesities.

I'd also call bullshit on your "social and moral" point, have you met public school children? They exude confidence and speak well, it doesn't mean they behave well. At a national competition final last year, which involved an over night stay and a party for the finalists my students were shocked at the behaviour of their privately educated peers. Class A drugs in the toilets, clicking fingers and rudeness to waiting staff, some of the young men were especially rude to the girls when their amorous advances were rebuffed: " Nasty comp chav slag" was one particular genius bon mot. I was proud that she walked off rather than tip her drink over him. Go look at the behaviour of people like the exclusively privately educated Bullingdon club!

Your point that academic ability was needed for the school and that other rich people didn't get in isn't a rebuttal of my point, because it wasn't based on academic ability alone but combined with the ability to pay.

A very selective response. I hope my tone wasn't quits as aggressive.

I'd rather think it was Beafort, how is my response selective? You took the whole of my previous post and merely addressed one point, the academic selectivity of the school, and catagorically failed to look at any of the rest. At the same time you launched a nasty attack on the state system, whilst spouting dubious morality points.

DS and the other two boys who went independent at eight were suited, glowed with confidence, could work the room and talk to anyone in it. They were, at 21, in command. That's why they will be successful

Be careful not to count your chickens too soon...an expensive education and a nice suit doesn't guarantee that they'll be successful. Your wording of 'That's why they will be successful' exudes breath-taking arrogance IMO. Hopefully this isn't the sort of 'confidence' your ds is glowing with

They were, at 21, in command

If a 21 year old walked into my team at work and thought he was "in command" I would find it really fucking annoying not to mention arrogant and unprofessional!

Ds 15 at top independent boy's school. Apparently best start in life could possibly have had. For some reason last year he simply stopped working- wrong envoirenment. So exactly, don't count your chickens too soon. There are just so many other important influencing factors in a child's life I think.

No one is saying things like your looks, height, personality, genes, IQ or family money don't have an impact; of course they do as do if your parents love you BUT that is just part of it. If you get your finger out and work very hard and don't be a pessimist thinking the likes of me can't be successful then you can do well. If you don't want to have that positive mind set then more fool you and all the more opportunities for those who have it. That is how things are.

One reason I like working and living amongst hard working immigrants in this bit of outer London is that their philosophy, mind set, ambition mirrors mine.

No one needs to launch a nasty attack on the state system. The fact it churns out pupils who don't speak or spell well and only get about half the good univesrity places and jobs speaks for itself. All kinds of things the private schools which don't cost a penny from selection, to single sex education, to speaking correctly, to good discipline, to singing in latin aged 8 are all things the state system could choose to do (and indeed some parts of it does).

We have all got rather off topic on this interesting thread. It remains the case that some income levels bring fewer benefits or more tax than is worth it. I remember when my brother said once his tax rate went up to 50% it was not worth working (as a doctor) at weekends as he didn't see the children and the state took half the money. 50% was his tipping point - let us hope Osborne has the courage to bring the top full rate of income tax down from 47% including NI to 42% but I don't hold my breath. This is a Government full of wet Tories, spending far too much and with extremely high tax rates in all areas.

Beaufort you are completely in denial that your affluence hasn't bought you and your children privilege. I have a foot in both camps, born and brought up in a working class family with brains, so grammar school education, uni and professional qualification. One of my family married into money and children have been privately educated at the kind of school your children are in - very expensive academically selective.

Many of their friends are nice enough but the hot-housing they get does ten to result in slightly mediocre getting better jobs than they should( I speak as an employer rather than a parent) which IMVHO isn't good for the country and often results in very stressed individuals.

We honestly left the state sector in absolute shock at the dismal academic, social and moral standards - you need to get out and take a look at a few more state schools. That is very far from my experience locally.

All kinds of things the private schools which don't cost a penny from

selection - well yes if you funnel off the pupils who would do well in any environment you're going to get better results

single sex education - rather depends of you're a girl or a boy
to speaking correctly - are we talking accents or grammatically?
to good discipline - not exclusive to private schools
to singing in latin aged 8 - now you're taking the piss!

are all things the state system could choose to do (and indeed some parts of it does).

I did qualify that by saying based on our experience of one secondary school. However, there was only one other alternative and it was too far away on public transport. I want to see better state schools for everyone and have been clear about that.

Yes, we did buy privilege but there weren't acceptable alternatives.

Oh Deo, no one has denied that hard work isn't a part of it, just that the acknowledgement that hard work is only one factor, and is not even the most important in terms of achieving success is equally as important.

Of course the state system could do the things the private system does, if it had the same levels of funding, and the same historical levels of funding to be able to do so.

Also on your "50%" of places at top universities point is fine until you come to the research that shows students that have the same grades, on the same courses, but come from state schools achieve higher grades than their privately educated peers. If the system wasn't so vastly in favour of those that are privately educated it may be easier for those who "work hard" to find success.

Your brother in law and his " not worth it" comment sticks in my throat to be honest, 50p was only on salaries over £150k, fine make the decision not to work, but don't put it down to a 5p higher tax rate over a certain level, when the state has invested lots and lots in the training of that individual.

Oh and Kewcumber I totally agree about the hot housing, smaller classes etc skewing the grades of private school students and their grades are not always a great indicator of their ability ( note the NOT ALWAYS there are obviously lots of talented students in the private system). If I could have year 13 classes of less than 10 it would be great, as it is I've got 3 of 20. As well as that I need to have more than at least 10 to run a class, if I didn't I would be told that it isn't financially viable and that I can teach other subjects. Even Camden School for Girls (which is as close to a private school in the public sector as you can get) has had to cut subjects because there weren't enough students wanting to do it to make it viable.

deo is completely right, it's the survival of the fittest.
You don't have to agree that everything is fair, because it isn't and that is life.

Anyhow anyone talking "successful people think like this" lines, may I refer you to the Berkley university research on the wealthy mindset, and a bit of professional confirmation bias.

But its not "survival of the fittest" because some are given advantages that others aren't, and it is easier to succeed. Then they fail to recognise this and start to be disparaging to others.

Have you ever seen Paul Piff's stuff on this Posie?

Aside from small classes and selective entry private educations biggest draw is the networking. I met many a talentless idiot an ex private school goer who got great jobs from friend connections.

But nepotism doesn't exist anymore apparently, again I'd refer those who don't believe that to the Westminster school internship auction.

Let's look at our Old Etonian political masters. Would they have succeeded and climbed so high without mummy and daddy buying privilege for them? Of course not. In politics, the arts, even the CofE, mater and pater have basically bought positions of power for their mediocre little darlings.

See I wouldn't go that far obviously they have to be hard working ( we can debate competence) and have been bright enough to get to good universities, Cameron won awards.

However their lack of understanding of just how privileged they are, and why the "Hard work and good life choices" mantra doesn't work for everyone, or how they are insulated from the impact of choices.

For example, Cameron was caught smoking pot at Eton, he didn't get expelled, they didn't call the police and it didn't effect his life in the future. Had he been at my school, he would have been expelled, he would have been cautioned by the police, he would have had his education interupted and his life chances would have been seriously effected.

Just one example, there are lots more.

Lots of people work very hard, and get very little out of life.
Removing tax relief from these privilege factories would be a start.

I know sinking, but it really woudln't make a difference, its about £200 million a year.

But yes lots work hard and get little from it, but to diminish the hard work element from others is not fair. You can however point out that they may not have been as succesful without the advantages and opportunities granted to them by accident of birth.

Lurked I much prefer your responses to the usual cliched attacks on children who go to private school. I was playing mumsnet bingo there, have we had the drugs one yet?

I have two in state and one in private, I have to say that I am quite disappointed that a boy in my sons class (state) who was caught taking drugs in school wasn't expelled. It is an excellent school though and produces fantastic results. It's turning in to a school thread now.

Just read my post back and it sounded sarcastic, I meant it genuinely