To think there is very little benefit in earning more than 50k

[ReallyTired]

Loss of child benefit and now reduction in pension tax relief makes hardly worth bursting a gut to earn over 50k. People who earn just over 50k are generally the work horses in skilled jobs that ecomony needs to grow. Given that such people will be saddled with high student loans in the future, what will senior teachers, doctors gain from all their hard work?

I didn't say you were Want2b, but its obviously touched a nerve, oh and obviously paying attention in conference calls too. Well done for your dedication.

The point I made is that people often forget that this being incredibly bright, dedicated to their career and hard working point you keep making is not uncommon, in fact most people are clever, hard working and dedicated in jobs that you wouldn't even consider.

I'll give you an anecdote of two men I know.

One is an MP and Barrister, went to a fairly good but not well known private school, got good grades, got into Oxford, got a 2:1 left and wanted to train for the law. Parents were able to support him and pay the fees for the Bar course and then pay his rent during the year he did his pupilage. He worked for a bit before being asked to get involved with the party he is a member of in his home constituancy (his father was a party man). After 2 years the old MP stepped down and our man was selected and won his fairly safe seat both in 2010 and last year. He's now a minor minister and as well as still being able to offer legal services (which he does) he does consultancy work for businesses. He works long hours and takes home a really good pay check + expenses.

The 2nd is a young man in my school, the Head of Law and Government and Politcs. Went to a standard comprehensive school, got good enough grades for a Russsle Group uni, got a 1st class honours and wanted to study for the bar. Parents couldn't afford to help him, and he couldn't borrow enough to cover the fees and living expenses, never mind cover his rent during his pupilage. So he took a job as an unqualified teacher while he made up his mind. He is brilliant at it, gets fantastic A level results, has done from the start, dedicated and hard working, he gets results from children that no one thought possible, he has such a good way with people, was made HOD whilst still qualifiying he was that good!

Now if everyone began equal, our man in the school would be ahead of the man in parliament, he's brighter, harder working, but because he didn't get the same opportunities in life, he's in a school and not earning as much.

Yet you would make dispariging remakrs regarding his dedication and effort?

Oh and I really want to know who you work for, I really don't want any of my investments taken care of someone so sleep deprived and distracted.

But that's the natural selection at play Deo.
Some people (like you and your daughters) have that drive and ambition and thrive on it - these are the people that rise to the top, but their number will always be finite because everyone can't/won't keep that up all the time.

It's the 'my husband earns £50k and it's not really enough' (with a sahm).
If it's not enough, quit whining and get a job.
If it is not enough then cut your cloth accordingly (eg, cleaners & laundry maids are not essential - they are desirable).

"We can all make choices and then we live with the result of those choices."

To an extent yes, but not everyone has equality of opportunity to they?

I don't tell my children that the silver spoon is neccesary, I tell my children how lucky they are to have parents that can afford to help them at uni, if they need to do jobs that are low paid to start with they are lucky to have parents who live in London and can help them by letting them live at home. Lucky to have parents who are highly educated and regard education as important.

Lots of people don't have that. Oh and if you don't think nepotism plays a part, just take a look at the Westminster School auction of internships. Says it all really.

My db got a 2/2 from Russell Group, he went to a state school, really devastated at that result. He did years of paralegal work to get his foot in the door and has is just doing his third seat at magic circle firm. I hate to agree with Deo because I think she can be utterly obnoxious but there is some truth in what she is saying about connections more recently.
The hours that he is putting in are insane, absolutely ridiculous and it will be like that for a good few years. He will pull in a good salary then if he doesn't die of a heart attack.

I think that the flat is rank. A lot of people who are capable of earning 50k plus in London are more than capable of earning 35k plus in a different part of the country. 220k can get you nice house in other parts of the country.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-35636322.html

This property is really cheap.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-40154259.html

Someone with sufficent ablity to earn 55k could might find a way of earning 25k in a cheap part of the country and enjoy a better standard of living.

I went through the £50k salary point relatively recently (2013/14 tax year). It was a transitional salary - these days I earn more than £50k (in fact a shade under £80k). I work 40 hours per week and only have to travel 3 or 4 times per year.

I could earn significantly more if I was prepared to work in London. I choose not to do this. My choice is fuelled by work-life balance considerations. I can honestly say that tax bands do not inform my thinking.

I expect to go through the £100k salary point within the next 3 to 4 years. I'll probably end up in the 45% tax bracket at some point. I may decided to drop to PT to avoid this, or I may not. I'll see how much I'm enjoying my job at that point in time.

I object to being told that I should consider myself 'lucky' though. I didn't get here through luck. It wasn't a passive progression - I made active and sometimes difficult choices along the way. I studied whilst working FT and having two young children. I didn't accept the 'mummy' track. I paid out the equivalent of my take-home pay in childcare. I could have made different choices, and settled for earning considerably less.

I do kind of agree with Deo, I think direct nepotism is less common (but not totally uncommon) but doors are still opened through connections. If not why are Westminster school auctioning off internships for thousands? Its not through philanthropic zeal is it?

I think everybody has their plateau of what they can earn before it starts to affect their lives.
For us because of low outgoings it's much less than 50k, more like 22k before we'd start losing money.
I agree there is no point in earning money if it doesn't give you a better quality of life and you end up financially worse off.

But are the economic opportunities available in other parts of the country Really Tired? The range of jobs and industries aren't there for sure.

Also there are other things here that make up the quality of life here that people make choices to be able to have.

Have you been to Swansea ReallyTired?

There's far more work opportunity, diversity and entertainment in London.

Yes, the flat linked to might be 'rank' to you, but it proves that you can actually have a 2 bedroom property in London which won't break the bank with your measly £50k earnings.

Is accommodation being more than adequate desirable or essential?
It's desirable.

Cut your cloth to suit and you won't struggle on £50k.

The whole set up in this country is unfair. Some people in poorly paid jobs struggle and have two or more jobs to make ends me yet others seem to do quite well. Tax is far too high and starts and to low a theshhold. Nobody earning less than £15K a year should pay tax. I don't object to CB being stopped for higher earners. But a lot of people on MN either seem poverty stricken or very well off.

Nepotism? Definitely not in my case!

My mum left school at 15, was an office junior before I was born, then a SAHP for 20+ years, and finally worked as a teaching assistant before retiring. My dad was an engineer (left school after A-levels and trained via an apprenticeship). They certainly didn't have any useful connections to give me a head start in my career.

But I bet you know people who have had advantages! Lots of people don't talk about it, lots don't even realise it!

One person succeeding without the benefit of nepotism does not "prove" that nepotism does not exist.

Back to the OP's alleged point:

I am comparing a job where you might earn 45k with a job where you earn 55k. Getting a little extra in the pay packet does not compensate for the additional costs or additional stress.

If there are additional costs, you'd have to take that into account whether you were going from 45-55, or 35-45, or 55-65.

If your entire point is that marginal tax exists, and that a pay rise of £5k does not mean £5k goes into your bank account, then you have managed to create a very active thread from a single banal observation.

There's nothing about this particular bracket that necessarily has more of a change in stress than any other bracket. Earning more does not always come with more stress. If you move to a job that is more in line with your particular skills, the higher-paying job may even be less stressful.

Where as the data that states how the privately educated still take the majority of the top jobs would suggest that even if nepotism doesn't exist, the path to success can be eased with wealth.

Deo

If everyone has equal opportunity- why did you send your kids to private schools - surely they would have done just as well at a local comp?

I did say not in my case

Although nepotism doesn't appear to be prevalent where I work. My boss is the son of a miner. My colleague was brought up by a single mother on a council estate in Blackburn. in fact, the only privately educated person in my department is the secretary...

"But are the economic opportunities available in other parts of the country Really Tired? The range of jobs and industries aren't there for sure. "

Sonetimes highly killed, intelligent people can make their own opportunities. More and more jobs can be done from home than in the past. Where as its true someone may have to go into London to earn 50k, lots of people are perfectly capable of earning 30k somewhere else. It is easier for someone with skills and experience to create their own employment.

The difficultly is that there is a brain drain of exceptionally able people in the direction of London. Other countries do not have such extreme differences between their capital and regions. South Wales and London are in a vicious circle. If there were more middle income people in Wales then facilities would improve. There would also be more jobs for unskilled people who find it harder to generate economic opportunities.

As far as entertainment goes, a lot depends on what you want to do. Wales may not have the theatres of London, but places like Cardiff do have facilities. Moving to Wales is hardly leaving western civilisation. There is a world outside London and the south east.

This Syrian refugee moved to one of the most deprived parts of the U.K. She has created a sucessful business out of nothing and generated jobs in Huddersfield.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/yorkshire-made-halloumi-is-a-hit-for-entrepreneur-1-6961508

Huddersfield is hardly one of the most deprived parts of the U.K, bloody hell, . If you read the article she also didn't do it on her own, she got support from the local development agency.

Also Deo, once you have paid for private school you have admitted that actually it isn't just all about hard work, there are other elements that effect how successful someone will be, and you've been willing to pay to ensure that your child has access to more of those elements than others.

There are more jobs that are well paid in London that's a fact, there are also lifestyle choices that people make to be here because it has something that attracts them.

The point of that flat being posted was that yes it is actually able to buy a ftb flat in London and that yes it is actually possible to live here on £50 k and its not fuck all.

First of all there are lots of things to do in Wales. Theatre Clwyd (not sure what it's called now) is excellent. They have some wonderful arts programs open to all those under 16 in north wales. Also, there are lots of opportunities to start a business outside of London that doesn't exist in London because overheads are just too high. If we moved back it would be to the Manchester area and not London. I would be starting my own business because for my set up it doesn't pay to work for someone else. I couldn't do that in London.

From what I have seen nepotism is stronger in government compared to the private sector. You are not going to get anywhere if you don't perform. It is also easy to give an excuse of nepotism when pointing to other people's career success. Same with private school. The desire to have a career and rise to the top comes from within. Your parents can only help you so much. You must be competent and work hard. An example I think of is Stella McCartney. Yes it helps that her Dad is Paul McCartney but she couldn't maintain her reputation as a highly regarded designer if she wasn't competent. She has taken the time and worked hard to hone her skills. Alexander McQueen came from a humble background and made it to the top too because he was incredibly talented.

Have any of you extolling the virtues of 'wonderful' Wales ever actually been any further west than Cardiff?

It really is very deprived in a lot of areas, and there is nothing to keep the 'very bright and able', no matter how much they would like to stay.

Where as its true someone may have to go into London to earn 50k, lots of people are perfectly capable of earning 30k somewhere else. It is easier for someone with skills and experience to create their own employment.
In Swansea? Where those houses were that you linked to?
You do realise that £30k + per annum jobs are not prevalent in some areas, don't you? Regardless of how 'skilled' you are.

"Huddersfield is hardly one of the most deprived parts of the U.K, bloody hell, . If you read the article she also didn't do it on her own, she got support from the local development agency. "

There are local development agencies all over the country to help people with business ideas. I am sure that if someone had a good business idea in South Wales there would be help available as well. What was different was someone having that initial spark of genius. Huddersfield has a lot of the same problems as South Wales.

My father lived in South Wales for three years. Although I only saw him at weekends and lived in England I saw plenty of South Wales. I am assure you that South Wales is not a shithole with zero opportunities. Able people often have a half full rather than a half empty mentality. They have the creativity and bravery to make opportunities for both themselves and other people.

"it is also easy to give an excuse of nepotism when pointing to other people's career success. Same with private school. The desire to have a career and rise to the top comes from within. Your parents can only help you so much. You must be competent and work hard"

Well lets just dismiss this argument completely. All the studies done show that private education confers advantages upon those that recieve it, from the Sutton Trust, to Durham University (who published this week) all show that there are distinct advantages gifted to those who are in privately educated that are not based on ability or effort but because of the ability of their parents to pay. This is combined with the study that showed that state school students with same A level grades and on the same courses were more likely to get better degree grades than their privately educated peers.

Further to this we have the fact that privately educated individuals still dominate the leading professions, now are you telling me that the 14% or so who are privately educated at secondary school are proportionally more able and hard working than the other 86% of the country and this is the reason for their success? Bollocks.

Its because of the advantages bought. They may have worked hard, they may be competent, dilligent and innovative, but there are advantages that have been paid for.

No one likes admitting that their success has as much to do with their background and the opportuinities they got as it does with their own hard work.

Finally the reason people like you Want2b and to an extent Deo keep preaching the gospel of hardwork is because you genuinely believe that your success is down only to you. As would almost all in those positions, its easier to praise your own effort.

Its also used as a hammer to beat the less fortunate with, not working hard enough, those feckless proles, they don't have the desire, the intelligence to work hard enough to succeed. Your insinuations of this Wan2b quite frankly are disgusting and suggest a distinct lack of understanding of reality.

Just because there are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean that the data collated and just good common sense aren't correct.

Oh and the "politics of envy" argument that you and your ilk invoke all the time when this is debated, is incorrect and an argument provided by those for whom the current status quo works, it isn't a confirmation of your correctness.