AIBU in thinking that racism is acceptable on Mn but any form sexism is stomped out immediately.

[rosebudyblue]

This is not about Mn HQ but the posters who jump on anyone who sees a racist comment and points it out. Sometimes, if they don't jump on the offended person, they make snide comments about how it's ruining the flow of the thread or starting an argument because everything was going so well. How dare they! Or how people take things so seriously by being easily offended. To me this shows how people are so an aware of racist sentiments that they think their peace is being disrupted. The amount of racist comments in the last two months has been rife.

My understanding is people lack awareness when it's racism related. If a person thinks that it's ok to point out a whole race as this or that in a negative way, How everyone from this country behaves like this and is in a negative way then more likely than not, you are being racist. The most common one I have seen is how people view English people from abroad. This has appeared in the "shower comments" and the "no rinsing dishes" threads and other threads too. People just found it acceptable because what, you can't be racist to white people ?
In the threads referring to black people and racism you tend to find those who dismiss it completely.
Then you have the threads where people are talking about how they have been to a certain country and they stereotype the whole race with the one bad experience they have had by pointing out the characteristics of the people in general in a negative way. use of some racist undertones or innuendos for example in the black women and mental health post.

The worst ones are those that don't even realise they have been racist and when you point out to them they try to be defensive about it. Self editing would be great. Before you write something about a group of people, ask your self if you would say that about a woman, about children or about gay people. If you think that people would find that offensive then it's best to stay clear because it probably is racist.

I reported that post on the cultural appropriation thread. I know I'm often guilty of not posting on the thread in response to racist posts, partly because I don't want to say something unintentionally offensive which just makes things worse, and partly because I don't feel "qualified" to comment, because I'm white and that means that I'm very very unlikely to experience racism personally. I know that's a crappy cop out excuse and I need to try harder.

There doesn't appear to be much overt racism on MN from what I've seen, but casual racism & lazy stereotyping can be quite prevalent.

I felt uncomfortable with a recent thread regarding a black female MP who has recently spoken out about her experiences of racism in politics.
The two specific examples mentioned were being mistaken for a cleaner in the members lift, and being challenged on her right to be on the members terrace.
Within the first few posts, the thread veered right away from her and her experiences.
The actual point of the thread was completely ignored so that some 'right on' posters could start to bleat about the Tories, and how all Tories are racist.
I'm not sure exactly why I felt uncomfortable about it, but I think it was because the racism aspect was completely disregarded in favour of a different topic, one which was more about white middle class non-Tory voters.

Anyway YANBU.

Morris..yes..I am not a big fan of organised religion. .or unorganised. However the poster said there were "anti Muslim" posts which surely are different to "anti Islam"posts?

You can be racist to white people in a context where white people are in a minority and are socially excluded, lacking representation in positions of power, lacking representation in the police, under-represented at university and in the professions, and being over-represented in prison.

In most of the world white people are not in a vulnerable position in that sense. Even in countries where white people are in a minority (South Africa) they are not under-represented in privileged positions and they are not over-represented in prison. But it could happen - it's not impossible to imagine that happening. Many white South Africans do feel vulnerable. I have also seen on here white people in communities where they are a numerical minority and feel vulnerable.

Think of the girls in Rochdale for example. They are white, and definitely they were victims of racism - being singled out for horrific abuse because they are white. Being white is tied up with their vulnerability - it is true they came mostly from vulnerable family situations but they were targeted on racial grounds.

Racism/sexism is not just about insulting other people. It's not about policing language. There is a social and economic context to it. Race discrimination laws were passed because of discrimination against black people. Equal pay laws were passed because women are paid less than men. These laws did not emerge based on nothing, just to tell people not to insult or offend other people.

I am white and however liberal I feel I have no idea what it is like to be black so if a black person tells me something feels racist to them then I should shut up and listen. I didn't realise how much you don't notice when it doesn't affect you until the anti-Muslim threads started hitting the boards a few years ago. DH and the DC are Muslim and being on a thread with someone telling me "all Muslims are / think / want ..." really annoyed me. It opened my eyes.

It is not for the group with the inherent privilege in the society to determine what the non-privileged groups find offensive or othering.

(I support anyone's right to question the tenets of a religion but to stereotype all the adherents of that religion as "evil" etc. is not acceptable)

Of course if people are just going to be just gratuitously vile and offensive for the sake of it, then there's no point in allowing that. But a different point of view that doesn't conform to the consensus view. Or is simply 'off message' can and does get censored as well.

The first few pages of that MNer's thread about her consultant were horrendous. So many people competing to tell her she was over-sensitive, and trying to imply she was holding back medical research by censoring medical terminology.

FFS. He was a doctor who worked with patients, not a scientist writing earthshattering theses on identification and prevention.

This is my first ever post afters reading threads on and off for years, ive joined as i increasingly wanted to comment on threads relating to both feminism, sexism and racism.
There have recently been horrible threads which started off discussing good points but yes they did have both overt racist messages and casual racism on them.

Of course alot of mumnetters will say i didnt see any racism, please stop trotting out this old chestnut. Ofcourse you will not read it, see it, acknowledge it or accept it as it simply does not apply to you. Just like the posters who this morning on a thread discussing the working poor and hardship, say ive never seen this in the southeast and must be up north, just because you have never seen it, does not mean it does not happen and in large numbers.

Intolerance is on the rise and the anonymity of the internet makes it so much easier for people to post exactly how they feel, fine, but please dont deny it goes on. Intolerance against the poor, disabled, ethnic minorities and islam is rife, even here on mumsnet, dont be ignorant or feign ignorance, go and read the threads mentioned by the op and others, and if you still cant see it, then please dont say I didnt see any racism, just feel lucky it didnt apply to you.

I am mixed race, white scottish being a very small part but first and foremost I am British and until recent years was always proud to be so, but things have definitely got worse, my sex, my name, my colour all work against me. And no I dont have a chip on my shoulder as im educated and have made good choices in my life, in part due to having received a good education, so i feel very priveleged ( not entitled), just accepting that i am luckier than some.

Racism is not dead, it just hidden and ignored, its still felt by lots of groups of people, i can click on any no of threads and read something that will annoy/upset/ piss me off but i have had to accept that thats life and that life is full of bigots, racist and those who live in bubbles. I shouldnt have to accept it but I do so as not to be in a constant angry state as heavens forbid i subscribe to the typical stereotype of an angry black woman!

Mention something sexist on aibu and look how long the thread is, mention racism and look at how few the replies, why? because, most have rolled their mouse over the post title and not even clicked on it and thought oh here we go again, not another one,

but fhs why are golliwogs discussed on here every few months and why does someone have to say ive got a black niece, my husbands black, they dont mind or that joke never bothered them, really do you know that? or are you just making assumptions.

Racism is rife, accept it. Please dont deny it exists and the experiences of those who feel it.

Of course racism is rife. Nobody is saying it isn't.

But I personally haven't seen any racist posts on MN allowed to stand. The golliwog trope is tedious for all of us and defenders of it always get slated.

I don't see the three or four times a year obligatory golliwog thread as evidence that mn itself or anything but a tiny minority of its users are racist.

It's often the casual racism, and also things that are actually offensive being defended vigorously. People who mention racism that they have experienced, generally are told that they are being oversensitive, or PC, or that no one can say anything these days, or that how can anyone keep up with what's offensive. What's lacking is often simple compassion or looking outside of their own experience. I would never post about racist incidents on MN, and after reading threads on here (including the inevitable golliwog ones) I would be very wary of discussing them with non black friends either. That is something that I have learned through being on here, that the general population, even on mumsnet which is hardly the DM comments section, are not 'safe' to discuss certain topics with.

And if I do see another golliwog thread, I will scream! Hopefully they're all just started by one namechanging GF!

On golliwog threads inevitably someone piles on saying 'my DH is black and he LOVES golliwogs, he thinks they're so cute and fucking hilarious!'

A couple of posters have said something along the lines of, "there's not so much racism, but a lot of stereotyping."

Isn't stereotypIng part of racosmetic (and sexism and so on?) The implication is that they're separate things, but I always thought it was part of it. (I feel I should be inserting a Venn diagram at this point)

Can someone explain where I've got confused?

For racosmetic, please read racism. My phone's autocorrect is on drugs.

Mistress i honestly havent seen threads like this i never saw the black women/mental health thread but i know it goes on in general in the world. From what ive seen on here so far everyone is super pc

"Isn't stereotypIng part of racism?"

I agree, though positive stereotyping does not have the same impact on quality of life, though it is still not seeing the real person.

I havent noticed it myself but i would believe it....Its not just mumsnet is it! Its in the air at the moment sadly. All this bollocks that's being drummed up by the press about 'foriegners' its the Brexit, the migrants etc etc I do think the Tories rode in on a wave of racism basically and there seems to be a massive trend in the indulgent 'oh you cant say anything now days its political correctness gone mad' bullshit 'explaination' for blatantly racist things people say. Im noticing it a lot in day to day life. Especially with some of the awful stuff my family come out with. It seems theres an atmosphere of it at the moment it makes me really sad. It seems to fester in people and then come out at times like this. And its just literally anyone that seems different in any way be that by colour of skin or accent or religion.

I think for a lot of white people racism has to be the in your face white hoods and cross burning kind for them to acknowledge without realising that it is the day to day to stuff that grinds most non-whites down (speaking from personal experience). Case in point, last year there was a thread on here from a mother talking about her child being bullied and assaulted at school by a white child that was using racist language towards her. 99% of the people responding on the thread were more concerned with the home life of the white child than the effect her bullying was having on the having on the non-white child. In fact most post didn't even mention or ask about the non white child and how she was coping they just talked about how awful the little white girls life must be for her to act this way.
If the thread had been about a boy bullying a girl using sexist language to do so the girl would have had the full support of the thread.
Things like this on here and in RL just shows me that to the vast majority of white people, non-whites just don't count.

I can't say I've ever noticed any racism on here. Mumsnet actually seems a pretty PC place overall.

Also, 'English' isn't a race. It's a nationality. If you discriminate or are prejudice towards anyone due to their nationality it's Xenophobia. Not all national stereotypes are necessarily negative. Also, social norms and culture differ between countries and commenting on the difference in social norms or culture isn't the same as stereotyping, in my opinion.

If people are saying that posts on here are racist, then white people need to listen to them and accept their assessment of the situation imo. Just like when men try to tell us that they're not being sexist when they are. The people who experience the discrimination are best placed to say when it's happening.

Thank you WhatdoIget and others on the thread that seem to understand.
It's about being listened to and not dismissed when we try and speak about our experiences. Very few on here would stand for a man telling them what it's like to be a woman but are happy to turn around and do exactly the same thing non-white people and see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Exactly whatdoIget - I agree with you OP

often you get accused of derailing the debate or 'silencing' people for challenging racist views and stereotypes - drive my nuts!

Or you get the "well I don't see it" brigade okay then because you don't see it it means it doesn't exist. Even when it is pointed out, they still don't see it. It's not because it's not there it's because you don't want to or feel it important enough to pay attention too.

YANBU

The posts in the Calais / refugees threads have been pretty disgusting but are mostly still there.