to say don't go and get signed off with stress

[writingonthewall]

I see this all the time on MN

OP: there's been a death in the family, I'm doing fine but need time off work to organise the funeral/comfort DH. work will only give me 3 days compassionate leave, after that I have to take holiday or unpaid leave

everyone else: go to your GP and get signed off with stress.

before I get flamed, I am a GP and I fully understand that bereavement hits different people in different ways. I sometimes do sign people off work after a bereavement - if you can't stand up for crying, then you can't work. And whilst there is no hierarchy of grief, as a general rule losing a child is very very traumatic whilst losing a parent is something that you do expect to happen at some point. So no problems with signing certificates for genuine mental health problems post bereavement.

What I do object to is this "get signed off with stress" when you aren't ill.

Do people not realise that, firstly, you are asking the GP to commit fraud. Secondly general practice is buckling. We are under resourced (all practices in one area I know are about to lose 20-25% of their funding) and even if we had the money, there are no GPs to recruit. And it's going to get worse if the new juniors contract doesn't get sorted out.

Every appointment taken up with a medicalisation of normal life, is an appointment that someone who is ill can't have and a potential delay in the diagnosis of someone else's cancer or other serious condition.

so please. see your GP if you are ill - physically or mentally. But think before you do and don't involve us in your battles with your employer and your general normal life events. Being sad after a bereavement is normal. The treatment is to talk about the person you have lost, cry a bit, and take care of yourself. It isn't to rush to the doctor for a medical cure.

And I think grief and traumatic event can be likened to an illness. If the word disease comes from ill at ease, then how are you at ease when someone has died? It's a massive shock to the system, it may not be a physical illness, but mentally it's very very challenging. This stiff upper lip stuff makes me sick.

I'm glad you're not my lovely gp, who signed me off when my mum died, and then again when my house burnt down. Both hideously stressful events that had huge emotional impact. Illnesses can be mental as well as physical.

I feel it's the mentality of the ''sick note'' which is the problem. No, grief is not an illness, but what else is there when you need more time off work and they wont let you have it?

OP answered this question with the following: if you are so upset that you really can't work, that's one thing. But ... it is clear that the time off is needed to sort out the funeral etc, not because there is a catastrophic grief reaction, and the response is "get signed off with stress".

Well then maybe the criteria shouldn't only be ''catastrophic grief reaction'' and then the note wouldn't be a 'fraud'. What's so wrong with recognising that a person is in need of more time than 3 days off work to support their family and organise a funeral? Even though they may not be 'on the floor with grief'.

You'd be better off having a word with all the old people who seem to think going to the GP each week is some kind of social outing.

Same ones every week, getting their blood pressure checked because they don't want the nurse to do it . One last week who didn't want the nurse to change her dressing so booked in with the GP instead. Then they come out and book another spot for the next week.

I haven't read the whole thread but when my baby brother died and my Mum at this particular point was on life support with my Dad being told she would unlikely ever come off it and was not expected to live the GP refused to sign my Dad off work with stress therefore my Dad had to go to work days after his baby son had died with his wife still in intensive care and ship off a toddler me to whoever could have me because his work said they would give him as much time off as he needed as long as he had a doctors note (huge company and policy). It broke our little family more than was necessary.

The time a GP took OPs attitude (and some others on this post) DH attempted suicide the next day. That GP was very shook up that he got it wrong. Unfortunately work does cause stress and very real symptoms

Years later dh was at the start of a breakdown and another GP basically told him that she wouldnt sign him off because she thought he just wanted to skive for a week, despite his record of MH issues since childhood. Thankfully i got him another appointment with his normal GP (who is amazing and lovely) and went with him, and he was signed off.

This stiff upper lip stuff makes me sick. I think we need to re-embrace our stiff lips. Many bereavements are terrible, but it's remarkable how you can soldier on if you have to. Again, we must set aside child bereavement, but grandparents? It's sad when grandparents die, but you really do not need to be signed off for two weeks for this as earlier poster says is her workplace's practice. In-laws, too (especially since so many on here claim to hate their in-laws!) - when my parents died I can't see why dh would have needed to take time off work.

I think OP is making it clear that there's a difference between someone who's unable to work because of their grief - which warrants a sick note - and someone who is in need of additional leave to sort out arrangements etc Those attacking her experience of grief haven't read her post properly: she's not saying that it's never necessary to be signed off as a result of bereavement - but that if you are capable of working, but need time to do arrangements etc then it shouldn't be the expectation that this time is worked out through sick leave, instead of directly with an employer.

I know people like to pile in and have a pop: but OP isn't - and hasn't - criticised those for whom grief affects their ability to function.

Well, if you hate your in laws, don't take the bloody time off. Sheesh!

OP you said

I've gone back to work on the afternoon of having my beloved dog put to sleep and had to have the odd break between patients to have a bit of a cry. Don't you dare say that I don't understand grief.

Actually what you understand is your own grief. You may be able to manage in ways that some people cannot. Soldiering on with a stiff upper lip doesn't make you a better person.

Agree, Lecture, about some elderly people going to the doctor all the time . Mil was the very worst offender. Can you imagine going to the GP to ask whether it was safe to go in a jacuzzi?! Ringing up, getting an appointment, getting dolled up, getting in the car, driving there, waiting, going in and asking that ? She used to muse, "Oh, I haven't been in to see Dr X for two weeks, he'll be wondering about me, I must go in and see him."

I fully agree with a pp that this post should be aimed at employers, many of whom display no compassion or care for their employees whatsoever. The stress is very often caused by employers refusing perfectly reasonable requests for unpaid or unplanned leave, what choice do people have in those circumstances other than to seek support from their GP? Perfect example, my DH and I both worked the same shift for the same company, I was pregnant and started to bleed heavily at work. I was made to wait in the medical room until I was 'sure' I needed to go to hospital (!!!) and then a supervisor drove me there. My husband was not allowed to take me (even though losing him from the shop floor would have had less impact on productivity than losing the supervisor) and I ended up losing our baby alone at the hospital. It had a massive effect on both of us, he felt guilty even though he'd been told he would lose his job if he left to be with me and I ended up with severe depression and anxiety resulting in months on sick leave. If employers treated their staff like human beings people would have no need to bother GP's for sick notes but emergencies and bereavement are viewed only from the POV of the inconvenience they cause to the employer with no care or compassion for the employee concerned. It's extremely short sighted because, as in my own case, the lack of support for their employees resulted in much greater inconvenience to my employer because I had to take sick leave and culminated in them losing two loyal and committed employees. Time off is always problematic for employers but an employee who is treated with compassion and extended a little goodwill in times of need will usually repay that with loyalty and the desire to not inconvenience their employer uneccessarily. Unfortunately that concept seems to have been forgotten in the modern workplace and it's inevitable that GP's will feel the knock on effect of more people needing to certify time off which should be granted as compassionate leave.

Agree hefzi, op has a genuine concern. Docs and nurses deal with grief on a daily basis and know it's effects. I don't think it's what they meant specifically. I think they are frustrated at having so little time to deal with their patients.

Oh dear. You would really hope a GP would have a level of compassion and understanding of all aspects of life, that would allow them to care for their patients individual needs more effectively.

The purpose of going to see a GP after a bereavement is not to be declared 'sick' or 'ill', but rather 'unfit for work'. Compassionate leave policies can vary widely between employers. That is not the fault of the employee, and based on the impact of any death on somebody, it is a GP who is one of the best people to advise what that particular patient requires to manage their future mental, emotional and physical health.

I have been in the position of crying in the toilets at work following a bereavement. Nobody should be doing that. I didn't belong in work. I stuck by the rules. I didn't give myself a chance, and I should have gone to the GP. The long-term effect was I made myself far more ill in the long-run, and missed far more time from work than had I minded myself better in the earlier days.

so please. see your GP if you are ill - physically or mentally. But think before you do and don't involve us in your battles with your employer and your general normal life events. Being sad after a bereavement is normal. The treatment is to talk about the person you have lost, cry a bit, and take care of yourself. It isn't to rush to the doctor for a medical cure.
But often the cure that is needed is 'time and space', and it is only a GP who can provide that. By signing somebody off work, you give them that breathing space to do all the things you mention.

I think it's also important to remember that whatever issues there are with the funding of GP services in the UK, the need for personal medical care that addresses both the prevention of future issues, rather than solely the treatment of existing ones is paramount. So that must include minding the future mental and emotional health of people, by assisting them access the 'time and space' they require at the time they require it.

Working when you're grieving is not a safeguarding issue. That is nanny state to the extreme!

Fantastic post Squigle

Grief is crippling.

Silver, if you look at the OP's you will see that she completely accepted that.

Fuck off

And therefore this was unnecessary and aggressive.

How awful fern.

Modern society is so messed up. Why have we got to the place where business and finances are more important than people?

I agree with the OP but I am in the privileged position that neither DH nor I work for assholes. DH's company stuck a week of compassionate leave onto his paternity leave because DD and I were still in hospital for the first week, without him asking for it or bothering a GP. My workmate lost his partner and was allowed to take things as he wanted for about 6 months, come in when he felt up to it, not when he didn't - he gradually went back to full time by about 4 months and has a great relationship with his boss and colleagues.

It is so depressing that an employer puts someone's physical presence in the office above their ability to do the work well or respecting their opinion of when they need a break. This is not the job of a GP to fix, people are sent for sick notes in the hope that the hassle of getting one is harder than just showing up for work - a horrible test to set a grieving or ill person and completely inconsiderate towards the GPs.

In my place of work people generally take 4-6 months off sick on full pay for the death of a parent

This has to be a typo or a wind up???

If not, please god let me never accidently employ someone from your place of work with those expectations. In what world is it an employer's responsibility to financially support someone who routinely takes half a year off because they are grieving??

'Wby are you on here OP when GPs are rushed off their feet ?'

Gees, maybe she is having a day off. Imagine that?

Well, I thnk the consensus is that employers should allow more time off for bereavement for those who ask for it without asking for a sick note. That would save the gp some time. But what chances are there of that happening with 0 hour contracts and later retirement? Honestly, this whole thread is about the priorities of our society and we seem to be stuck in a system that is not in our favour.

I totally agree with the OP and I speak as someone that has lost a partner very suddenly.
It's not a fucking grief competition. People deal with things in different ways, but grief is not an illness. It's an unfortunate part of life.
If I had gone to the GP it would have been to access bereavement groups etc that GP's can refer you to.

YANBU

I think this is a HR problem. My last company was pretty shit, refused to act in any compassionate way at all unless a sick note was involved.

Better employers would hopefully mean less people running to the GP purely to get their employers to take them seriously.