to say don't go and get signed off with stress

[writingonthewall]

I see this all the time on MN

OP: there's been a death in the family, I'm doing fine but need time off work to organise the funeral/comfort DH. work will only give me 3 days compassionate leave, after that I have to take holiday or unpaid leave

everyone else: go to your GP and get signed off with stress.

before I get flamed, I am a GP and I fully understand that bereavement hits different people in different ways. I sometimes do sign people off work after a bereavement - if you can't stand up for crying, then you can't work. And whilst there is no hierarchy of grief, as a general rule losing a child is very very traumatic whilst losing a parent is something that you do expect to happen at some point. So no problems with signing certificates for genuine mental health problems post bereavement.

What I do object to is this "get signed off with stress" when you aren't ill.

Do people not realise that, firstly, you are asking the GP to commit fraud. Secondly general practice is buckling. We are under resourced (all practices in one area I know are about to lose 20-25% of their funding) and even if we had the money, there are no GPs to recruit. And it's going to get worse if the new juniors contract doesn't get sorted out.

Every appointment taken up with a medicalisation of normal life, is an appointment that someone who is ill can't have and a potential delay in the diagnosis of someone else's cancer or other serious condition.

so please. see your GP if you are ill - physically or mentally. But think before you do and don't involve us in your battles with your employer and your general normal life events. Being sad after a bereavement is normal. The treatment is to talk about the person you have lost, cry a bit, and take care of yourself. It isn't to rush to the doctor for a medical cure.

It was probably a mistake to mention the dog grin

Just to add, my fil died very suddenly last week when out shopping. My dh took 2 days off work immediately when it happened, then 2 days this week to drive four hours away to help arrnage his funeral. it is no where near long enough but his private sector company only gives 2 days compassionate leave and anything else has to be taken as holiday. it is no-where near enough for the sudden death of a parent.

To be fair, everyone is picking up on the dog. She did lose her dad too

Did you mean to say you were a GP or is that a typo for GF?

nail on head!

Here is why I don't think YABU: because compassionate leave should be longer. The problem is that employee rights and benefits have been eroded.

3 days paid leave, and yes, that includes when you have lost a child. And for those on those lovely zero hours contracts or agency work, it might be nothing paid at all.

I don't think YABU, but there will be nothing but flames and anecdotes.

The GP isn't sending anyone back to work.

The GP is asked whether people are too sick to work.

Not whether they agree with your companies compassionate leave policy, or whether you could do with more compassionate leave.

Purely whether you are too sick.

This isn't to disgree with the OP, but I think with the growth of the service industry economy a lot of jobs these days require 'emotional labour' which makes the soldiering on harder than it used to be. If you're not only expected to do the job but also be chirpy and friendly while doing it, it's much harder to cope with a day at work while grieving than it was when there weren't so many demands in terms of how you came across.

I definitely agree with you OP. When my mum died I was amazed at how many people told me I should get signed off sick or ask for antidepressants. Being sad after someone has died is normal - if you genuinely cannot cope with daily life then fair enough, but tbh I think most people are better off keeping busy and getting on with things. I went back to work after 2 days to deal with practical things, and it really helped. What would I have done if I was at home - sat around feeling sorry for myself?

I also agree with OP, actually - sick notes are for when you're ill, not for when there are other issues with work.

I also see frequently on here someone presenting (as much as one can over the magic internet) as being a bit down and fed up, and the advice is often to go to the doctor and ask about ADs. There is a huge difference between a normal reaction to life - grief after bereavement, for example - and a reaction requiring medication. (And I say that as someone who would no longer be alive without vast quantities of ADs.) It is good that it is easier than it was - by far - 20 years ago to access medication for depression: but though it's the quickest and easiest (and probably also the cheapest, in many cases) way to deal with things, it's not necessarily the best in all cases. There is also the danger that it causes problems for people who have no choice but to be medicated - because one person takes ADs for 6 months after some kind of life event, they then sometimes generalise horribly about depression thereafter, which can have a real impact on people with major or recurring disorders. Of course, sometimes ADs can help someone over a hump, whether that's grief or something else, but it seems often that there is a rush to medicalise perfectly normal reactions to abnormal events.

The sicknote phenomenon that PP mentioned isn't uncommon, either: I know my DGD, who was tending to GP, changed her mind after one particularly grim GP rotation, when every single patient, on every single day, of the entire rotation was only there to collect their sick note. (She's now a hospital doctor instead.) And I won't mention the former colleague who requalified as a pathologist after a few years of GP... I do have sympathies for GPs, despite having had some absolutely bloody awful ones over the years (to the extent that now I finally have a good practice, I will consider going private when I move - it took me nearly 40 years to find a practice where the majority of GPs treat you like a sentient human being) and their place is not to arbitrate in disputes with your employer.

But it's not the general public's fault general practice is buckling. Isn't your frustration a bit misdirected?

I only know of one person who was taking the piss withh getting signed off regularly but further analysis would probably uncover a personality disorder that prevents them working.

Maybe the nhs is overstretched because a. the tories and previous new labour want to drive it into the ground b. managers and pen pushers take silly salaries when medical staff work ridiculous hours on shit pay, little breaks, crap workers rights etc which is all part of plan a.

I understand where OP is coming from but it's a difficult one. There can be all sorts of things where people need time out from work but annual leave allowances aren't sufficient to help and people can't afford to take unpaid leave. On the other hand, the work place isn't a charity and needs to manage the attendance of employees. You have to take each case on its merit I think.

Really all you needed to say was stop taking valuable gp appointments when you aren't ill. Especially if it's to get time off work when you aren't stressed. All your additions musings on bereavement weren't necessary imho. I've seen people bounce back, people absolutely crippled etc. I don't think I've seen anyone on mn suggest getting signed off with stress after a bereavement unless it was absolutely necessary. I could be wrong.

I am not sure that people are going to the doctor for a 'medical cure' for grief. I think in a lot of cases, HR departments and bosses TELL people to go to the GP to get signed off with 'stress' because either there isn't a way of signing people off for grief, or there isn't an understanding of that alternative mechanism. It's not that those people want pills - they want time to grieve, time that some increasingly neoliberal workplaces are disinclined to grant without medicalising the issue.

I don't think anyone can anticipate how the death of a parent hits, either. I am about the idea of a fixed hierarchy of grief depending on relationship alone.

So what would be long enough Babyroobs? A week, two, three? A couple of months? A year? Grief last for ages and ages ime but everyday stuff carries on regardless, at least for most people.

In my place of work people generally take 4-6 months off sick on full pay for the death of a parent.

Where the hell is this? When my father died unexpectedly I had two days' bereavement - luckily he died on a bank holiday weekend and then I was docked a day's pay when I went to his funeral. I must admit I fell out of love with my firm after that.

But 4-6 months on full pay ? Obviously grief hits people in different ways - and frankly I felt going to work and completely focusing on something else was somewhat helpful - but I do agree with OP in that we know our parents are going to die . For most of us it's a terrible loss but you can't take six months off work for this!

There is no 'one size fits all' Some people react very badly to death, others like myself just carried on as normal after my dps died - to me that was 'just the passage of life'. DH is terminally ill and I think I will be the same re him - he has struggled with health problems over many years. Don't think I would be the same if it was one of the dcs though! There is no right and wrong reaction to death - we are all different.

KateReddy did you not see the bit where the op says she lost her father or just ignore it?

GF perhaps relates to you.....

And I do understand your frustration at lack if funding btw. It's awful.

Also, if you don't think they need a sick note, don't produce one. Or am I being over simplistic?

GPs are usually nice people.

They want to be liked by their patients.

They are assessed on whether patients like them, and if their 'patient satisfaction' isn't high enough, they're in trouble.

Then those patients put them in the awkward position of being asked to commit fraud, and get involved in employment disputes with only half the story. It's impossible.

Sick notes are for sick people.

'It sounds like your grief isn't following the usual pattern, and you need help from a sympathetic doctor, yes.'

With some bereavements, there is no 'usual pattern'. Part of being able to live on (not 'move on, because you don't in this case and indeed, plenty of people don't live on, either, they end their lives) after child bereavement is learning that it is a lifetimes of loss, for the life that child never got to live. It is against the natural order and is a state of living, not a pattern or stages.

And I agree with the OP, if it makes you ill by all means go and see them.

The loss of my young daughter has made me very, very, very unwell in the past and still does, although I am getting better at dealing with it and recognising it.

But again, the root cause of the problem is lack of employee rights and benefits.

ricketytickety And risk a complaint? That takes hours (every single complaint, even if vexatious) to deal with?

They don't have time. Honestly. As I said, they're probably feeling under the weather, too.

You say you understand grief, as you've experience of it. Fair enough.

But that was your grief. People experience grief in a whole range of ways and may react completely differently to you. They may be in need of a sick note where you were not. That seems to be the bit about grief you don't understand.

YANBU OP.

You wouldn't go to the GP and pretend to have a broken arm, why would you do that for a MH problem?

I do agree with PP who say it's not necessarily about the 'closeness' of the person though - I was far FAR more upset when my first hamster died (I was an adult!) than when my Gran passed away. With hindsight, my Grans death was expected, it happened in the removed setting of a nursing home, it was just easier to process.

But it's not the general public's fault general practice is buckling.

the public is contributing. I have seen people wanting signing off sick after breaking up with a (short term) partner, wanting to see a doctor with a two hour sore throat (nothing taken over the counter, fit healthy adult, no temperature) and a million other things that most sensible people would sort out themselves.

It is the politicians who are destroying the NHS but some members of the public are helping with unreasonable demand