to say don't go and get signed off with stress

[writingonthewall]

I see this all the time on MN

OP: there's been a death in the family, I'm doing fine but need time off work to organise the funeral/comfort DH. work will only give me 3 days compassionate leave, after that I have to take holiday or unpaid leave

everyone else: go to your GP and get signed off with stress.

before I get flamed, I am a GP and I fully understand that bereavement hits different people in different ways. I sometimes do sign people off work after a bereavement - if you can't stand up for crying, then you can't work. And whilst there is no hierarchy of grief, as a general rule losing a child is very very traumatic whilst losing a parent is something that you do expect to happen at some point. So no problems with signing certificates for genuine mental health problems post bereavement.

What I do object to is this "get signed off with stress" when you aren't ill.

Do people not realise that, firstly, you are asking the GP to commit fraud. Secondly general practice is buckling. We are under resourced (all practices in one area I know are about to lose 20-25% of their funding) and even if we had the money, there are no GPs to recruit. And it's going to get worse if the new juniors contract doesn't get sorted out.

Every appointment taken up with a medicalisation of normal life, is an appointment that someone who is ill can't have and a potential delay in the diagnosis of someone else's cancer or other serious condition.

so please. see your GP if you are ill - physically or mentally. But think before you do and don't involve us in your battles with your employer and your general normal life events. Being sad after a bereavement is normal. The treatment is to talk about the person you have lost, cry a bit, and take care of yourself. It isn't to rush to the doctor for a medical cure.

No. But people expect it to be, and take up an appointment for it.

"It's just a signature" when we say it costs £10. They then refuse the £10. But we (society) never get back the £30 the appointment cost.

My mum recently had to take unplanned time off work when a relative died at other end of the country and she was literally the only family member he had, so had to go and sort out death cert, probate, funeral etc. She rang her doctor on the off chance and was very honest and said she couldn't really say she was ill or stressed or breaking down with grief but explained the situation. Her GP gave her a two week sick note anyway without mum even asking for it...she had been thinking she'd probably have to take unpaid leave.

So I don't think all GP's agree with OP. I don't know exactly what I think myself. But I am someone who just gets on with things and have never been so emotional (even after death of family) I couldn't do my job. I know not everyone is like that. Plus the practical stuff after a death still takes time and needs doing by someone...

I think GPs who know their patients well, and know their type, can offer more discretion when needed. Which is a good think.

But is totally being eroded in aid of the 'seven day NHS'.

I agree with OP, I wish all GP's were more like them. I work in HR and am tired of playing games with people who constantly go sick when the going gets tough at work and then GPs sign them off. It is not always the answer and often just delays things. Unfortunately working in a very specific area of the public sector sick leave is seen as an entitlement. If you need time off use your leave, take unpaid leave. Going sick just increases your absence and gives your employer more of a reason to have concerns.

*thing, not think

Boursin - exactly the kind of stuff people expect from GP's that is going to result in the end of general practice.

If anyone wants a letter from any other professional (lawyer, etc) they would charge for their time. We are somehow expected to concede to every demand for free, despite being snowed under dealing with an aging population, more traditional hospital work being done by GP's, increasing mental health issues, etc, etc, etc.

This is the stuff that is breaking the NHS, and will mean the end of it as you know it...

In my place of work people generally take 4-6 months off sick on full pay for the death of a parent

Wow, I really, really want to work there! I've only worked in professional jobs and I guess we're quite well paid but we definitely can't take 4 months off sick on full pay. Maybe that's why. Other people's work places are clearly different.

Am an employer now (so no sick pay for me) and am a bit at GPs giving sick notes for time spent organising funerals and so on. For a small business, this sort of sick leave is crazy expensive, if we even can get locum cover which we mostly can't.

I have the utmost sympathy with the OP. I work in Occupational Health and challenging people's perceptions of being 'unfit' for work is a regular occurrence for me. I see the medicalisation of non- medical issues every day- usually around perceived work related stress though. A very common scenario is when a manager tries to manage an employees performance and the employee gets upset, so they get signed off with stress for weeks on end by the GP. I understand the GP is in a very difficult situation as the patients advocate, it is very difficult for them to deny a patient's wishes.

I agree that someone who is debilitated by grief is not fit for work, and sometimes it can lead to clinical illness such as depression in the long term. However, the benefits of work in recovery are so important but to discuss this with someone is often seen as 'pushing them back into work' so it has to be done with great tact and understanding. The biggest influencing factor in my experience for the speed in which people rerun to work in these circumstances is whether they feel supported in the workplace by their team and manager. Unfortunately this is rare.

I really am getting fed up of seeing very ignorant posts from people along the lines of 'You're a horrid person because you think that bereaved people should just shut up and suffer'. OP has NOT said this. RTFT!

the Op seems to think that just because she handled her grief well, others should be like her.
She says when you are bereaved you talk to a friend and have a cry.
I lost df more than six months ago. It was sudden and traumatic. I felt the most isolated I have ever felt and totally unable to reach out to friends. I still haven't cried.
At the beginning I suffered insomnia, panic attacks, loss of appetite, anxiety. I couldn't concentrate and had total memory blanks of meetings and decisions. And crushing fatigue. These are all normal symptoms of grief but also medical issues deserving of a sick note.
After three months started having bereavement counselling and three months after that felt back to normal physically.
My bereavement counsellor said it took two yrs to process grief.
Op, I strongly suggest you reach out to bereavement experts and get yourself some training in this area.

Pp have mentioned above about GPs knowing them and their situation, I do think that's very pertinent. It is difficult in so many areas when the personal relationship between dr and patient is non existent. It's a shame that is beibg lost

The OP doesn't think that.

She thinks sick notes are for sick people.

gentlydownthestreammm
My mum recently had to take unplanned time off work when a relative died at other end of the country and she was literally the only family member he had, so had to go and sort out death cert, probate, funeral etc. She rang her doctor on the off chance and was very honest and said she couldn't really say she was ill or stressed or breaking down with grief but explained the situation. Her GP gave her a two week sick note anyway without mum even asking for it...she had been thinking she'd probably have to take unpaid leave.

I completely understand why your Mum did this but I don't agree with it. It wasn't up to the Doctor to be 'generous' and 'understanding' on the companies behalf. It was dishonest Ideally the company would have granted compassionate leave.

alltheworld I said clearly in my OP and several times since that I was talking about people who want a sick note to sort things out, take care of family etc not those with disabling grief or depression. I have several patents with stories similar to yours who I am supporting, usually signing off for 3-4 weeks at a time then reviewing, discussing counselling, antidepressantS and where appropriate a gradual return to work.

Thank you to everyone who has pointed out that my OP was clear on this.

It really isn't for you, or anyone else to decide how bad a persons grief is. What a fucking stupid thing to say. Yes I expect my parents to die, but I will be devastated when they do and if I need to be signed off I would not expect my GP to take into consideration my relationship to the deceased.

gently does your mum work for a small company? How are they going to manage paying for her and a replacement. That GP has committed fraud and essentially stolen from your mum's employer.

Alltheworld - I can only conclude that you and I are reading different threads then, because I can't see that OP has said that these are things that should apply universally regardless of the type of loss or the circumstances. In view of this your suggestion that she 'reaches out' and gets herself training is rather patronising and misguided.

I would also like to add that my GP is amazing. Thorough, kind and sensible AND listens, something many GP's and mangers do not do!

Thank you to everyone who has pointed out that my OP was clear on this

It really was. You didn't say that grief could never cause symptoms/conditions that merit a sick note. But it shouldn't be the norm and it certainly shouldn't be used for people needing to do estate admin.

Actually, most people do deal with losing parents pretty well. That doesn't mean everyone will, and the OP totally acknowledged that.

take into consideration my relationship to the deceased

the Op was generalising about how people generally deal with different types of grief. She didn't say that she doesn't write sick notes for people who have lost parents. People react in different ways and she said that.

"hen a manager tries to manage an employees performance and the employee gets upset, so they get signed off with stress for weeks on end by the GP"

You mean when an employee is stressed because they're bullied? Is it better for the employee to go on drugs to be able to cope with the situation at work or just cry in the toilets every day?

MrsWhirling how can the GP certify you unfit to work without deciding how bad your grief is?

Why would you assume that an employee is being bullied simply because they've been told they aren't performing?

But the op doesn't seem to understand grief. She says there is no hierarchy but insinuates that losing a parent shouldn't be traumatic. She seems to think grief is being sad and fixed by a weepy chat with a friend.
Bereavement is an inevitable fact of life but it can cause huge health issues. I really think she should go find out more from experts.