to say don't go and get signed off with stress

[writingonthewall]

I see this all the time on MN

OP: there's been a death in the family, I'm doing fine but need time off work to organise the funeral/comfort DH. work will only give me 3 days compassionate leave, after that I have to take holiday or unpaid leave

everyone else: go to your GP and get signed off with stress.

before I get flamed, I am a GP and I fully understand that bereavement hits different people in different ways. I sometimes do sign people off work after a bereavement - if you can't stand up for crying, then you can't work. And whilst there is no hierarchy of grief, as a general rule losing a child is very very traumatic whilst losing a parent is something that you do expect to happen at some point. So no problems with signing certificates for genuine mental health problems post bereavement.

What I do object to is this "get signed off with stress" when you aren't ill.

Do people not realise that, firstly, you are asking the GP to commit fraud. Secondly general practice is buckling. We are under resourced (all practices in one area I know are about to lose 20-25% of their funding) and even if we had the money, there are no GPs to recruit. And it's going to get worse if the new juniors contract doesn't get sorted out.

Every appointment taken up with a medicalisation of normal life, is an appointment that someone who is ill can't have and a potential delay in the diagnosis of someone else's cancer or other serious condition.

so please. see your GP if you are ill - physically or mentally. But think before you do and don't involve us in your battles with your employer and your general normal life events. Being sad after a bereavement is normal. The treatment is to talk about the person you have lost, cry a bit, and take care of yourself. It isn't to rush to the doctor for a medical cure.

Seriously

all that is not what she says. What she says is:

• grief causing mental health problems needs a sick note
• a bereavement which is out of the natural order of things is more likely to cause mental health problems

That's it. Not that losing a parent is easy or never leaves to MH problems needing a sick note.

Are alltheworld's "grief experts" like Kristoff's "Love experts" I wonder?

Losing a parent is part of the natural course of life. I don't understand this 'there is no hierarchy of grief' nonsense, obviously it's infinitely harder to lose a child or a husband/wife than a parent.

If losing a parent were a debilitating event, then most people would spend their 40s in a debilitated state.

Writing - I am struggling to believe you're a GP as you seem to have a very fixed view of situations and lack empathy.very worrying.

Sounds exactly like my gp!!! the original doc Martin! "its all right you know your going to lose a parent!" my mum was early sixties and it was not expected.

Sorry but when my mum dies I will be destroyed. Utterly destroyed, "natural" order of things or not.

Fucking insensitive thing to say.

finallyonboard I hate to tell you this, but it's all an act. GPs are taught to demonstrate empathy in a convincing way in a consultation.

They don't have to do that online.

maybe you can't know that. But if you are unwell as a result of your grief then a sick note will be available. If not, your employer won't pay you to not work.

What you feel following a loss is not necessarily confined to that loss, all sorts of earlier emotions can be brought up causing you problems copying with normal life.
I would suggest that after a whopping three days off, many people will still be in shock about the death, which is not an easy thing to push on through in your workplace.

Yes, I do know that.

And I would get at least 2 weeks off for the death of a parent at my workplace, FYI.

In my place of work people generally take 4-6 months off sick on full pay for the death of a parent.

Is that even allowed??!

Wow! 4-6 months full pay for grief?!?

I want that job!

when you put it like that I can see why you are concerned.

However frustrating it is though, that 5% will probably always exist trying it on. Is there any way to head them off at the pass eg the receptionist? Or maybe the nhs should account for it as it seems inevitable you'll have to deal with them.

If only you could have that extra gp...lack of resources are your problem. You can't stop that 5%. They need to be accounted for. Must drive you potty when you're stretched as you are.

When I say people in my work place take 4-6 months off after the loss of a parent, I mean they go to their GP and get signed off with stress. Work doesn't give them the time off on bereavement leave but if your GP gives you a sick for note for stress caused by the bereavement then they can't argue with it. Our work sickness policy is 6 months full pay then down to half pay. Of course not everyone will take this long off, I certainly didn't but there have been quite a few recently that have.

6 months full pay sick leave is really generous, never ever move job (unless you're the healthiest person on the planet).

That's why I was a bit

UGH op is right, some people won't ever just suck it up and deal with it.
Life can suck, deal with it. Or you don't deserve life full of love and happiness.

at this thread
What an utter load of bollocks.
Some people truly amaze me.

I agree, I've never understood the denial of a hierarchy of grief either. Of course there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to relationships and e.emotions, but of course losing an elderly parent at the end of a long well lived life is totally different to the loss of a child. Anyone who thinks different, well I hope it keeps fine for them. But agree 3 days is inhumane, and it's not a GPs job to bridge the gap. I'm in ireland and I don't even know the legalities. But a woman in our office lost her 60 something mother last year. Boss said hed ring her friday week and see when she'd be back. The longer serving staff got the morning off, paid, for the funeral, more recent staff holding the firt fir the few hours. There probably was a sick note to appease the boxes that need ticking. In my gp there is a price list on the wall for anything outside of an ordinary consultation. Sick certs about 40% of that. I haven't had experience of a debilitating bereavement in some years, thank god. But no one I know wold fret about work and time off in the event, I dont think. Bereavement is a fact of life. It shoukd be acknowledged properly

OP I completely agree with you. As a manager I can't tell you how frustrating it is when colleagues are signed off sick & I know they are genuinely not. An example of this happened today. A colleague needs some time off to look after a relative after an operation, she does not want to take it as holiday or take any of our companies leave options available (because they are unpaid). So she has told me she will just get herself signed off by her doctor. I can't do anything about this because once a doctor has given a note then I cannot question her sickness.

Possibly the question is whether grief is stress, or should there be a designated, more pertinent term for that.

I think many people just don't want to or can't afford to take unpaid leave even though the option is there. Not only for bereavement but other things. I had one colleaugue take months off when her husband was diagnosed with cancer ( not terminal), another took months off to care for her partners dad when he became sick, another took months off when her daughter was assaulted by a violent partner. These people all took months of sick leave signed off by their GP with stress. I don't doubt they are stressed and that they need time off for a family crisis but where do you draw the line as to what is sick leave and what should be taken as unpaid leave? It's very difficult but if someone is signed off, employers can do little about it. Some people will try to get everything they can. In my place of work there is certainly an attitude that ' if others do it so can I' and that they are 'owed' it after years of service.

'owed' it after years of service
Yes, I hear this from people. People even say "I haven't taken any of my sick leave this year" like it's holiday or something to use up.

My child died and one of the things I do is work in grief support. I had only 10 days or so off work after my child died (as couldn't extend my leave as, well, they were dead and no longer required round the clock care) I had to return before the funeral to a ghastly office full of people I assumed had been informed, who had not been. It was just terrible. A while later I had lots of problems at work and was very ill. I still never had time off sick. BY the time I nearly asked for a note I was feeling suicidal+++ and had crashed into a very deep depression, was physically also very unwell. In the end I left my job instead of taking time off.
So I agree with OP that sick notes are for people who are sick. But I also know that if someone says they are struggling, then irrespective of who or why or what, they should be listened to and taken seriously. No matter how relatively-normal-in-the-scheme-of-things or how truly devasting but oddly chirpy they may seem. The key is to listen to what they say and act accordingly. Many people who are suicidal don't seem it to others, and nobody needs a 'reason'. But my gosh if they need some time off and the only way they can take that is by requesting medical evidence, then it just may save their life.

OP says "... what I object to is the "get signed off with stress" when you aren't ill". It's not up to the GP to act as social worker, HR manager, etc. If it isn't health-related, it isn't the GP's area of expertise.