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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

cultural appropriation

272 replies

nceccoli · 26/02/2016 01:07

Just had a discussion. aibu to say that cultural appropriation works both ways? A number of black bloggers and models have slated Kim Kardashian and Kylie jenner for wearing "boxer braids". But I have yet to see anyone commenting on Beyonce culturally appropriate Indian culture , hairstyle, dress and adornment for her song Hymn for the Weekend?

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Awadebumbo · 26/02/2016 11:13

Because Stopshouting
Nothing is legitimate until white people do it. We savages can't be trusted to have our own things without white people showing us how to do it properly.

BadDoGooder · 26/02/2016 11:15

I want to add, I (hopefully) consider myself to be quite sensitive about this stuff. And yes I am part of a subculture where lots of people have dreads, but none of the black people I know well have ever said they had a problem with it, even when asked, except to say they think it's hilarious because they generally look stupid! Grin prepares to be flamed

I really struggle with this subject, as I really don't want to offend anyone, and I had hoped that by adopting a more "viking" look, ie not massive fat rastafarian type dreads, but a mix of dreads, braids, "wrapped" bits etc.
It look rough and ready, not lovely and neat.

I also struggle with this becuase as far I know there were lots of cultures where variations on that hair style were used, bit like tattoos of varying designs.

I am happy to be told I'm wrong though, as it genuinely interests me!

nceccoli · 26/02/2016 11:17

My point is Beyonce has actually culturally appropriated while I am not sure the kardashians/jenner have in the matter of the braid at least. If they had been sporting corn rows, twists, across or dreadlocks or wearing a traditional African outfit such as dashiki or Ghanaian ashanti embroidery then yes absolutely cultural appropriation. But the braids seem clearly a tight Dutch braid which is european/white style.

OP posts:
nceccoli · 26/02/2016 11:17

Not across but afros

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TheBalefulGroke · 26/02/2016 11:18

if someone surgically alters themselves to look like someone else ( of any background) I would think the person having surgery is a person with problems, and pity them, tbh. I'm not sure I'd see it as a racist act.
I'm guessing WBRI people struggle to see how upsetting it is because there is no national costume, or hairstyle or mode of dress in Britain.
Gollys seem like a separate issue-, to me, but I can appreciate that for someone on the receiving end of prejudice may not think so.

vienna1981 · 26/02/2016 11:20

Nothing to do with hair but is it possible for different musical genres to be 'owned' by certain cultures. For example, Wet Wet Wet and Hall and Oates are two bands that have made a considerable living from making Soul records which is generally associated with African-Americans. And yet I can't think of a single rock or metal band that is exclusively black. Iron Maiden, AC DC, Metallica et al are all composed of white men.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 26/02/2016 11:21

I personally don't agree with ppl slating the Kardashians for this, just seems petty and there are bigger fish to fry

But I do think that its very galling that

black person dresses a certain way = seen a criminal/gangsta = more like to get arrested/stop and search etc.

white person dresses that way = cool (i.e. Lily Allen back in the days)

its unfair

I think that's why so many people (of all colours!) found the whole Ali G thing funny as he took the massive piss out of it in quite an endearing way

sleeponeday · 26/02/2016 11:23

Someone up thread said that white people with dreadlocks have helped black people with dreadlocks become more accepted.
That is the very essence of cultural appropriation, why should it take white people wearing a hairstyle for fashion that for black people is an affirmation of religion so that black people to gain acceptance for representing their own heritage and culture. Why is that it always takes white people doing something to confirm legitimacy.

This, this and more this. And the idea black people should somehow be pleased by this further evidence of entrenched and systemic racism in society, because hey, now white people are doing something it's not just acceptable, but cool... words absolutely fail me.

Of course something isn't necessarily cultural appropriation. But the example above is a perfect example of when it is: when something seen as ugly and inferior because it's associated with an oppressed group is taken up by a group with societal power, and suddenly becomes cool and edgy and trendy by that change, and no actual intention of supporting the original group or understanding the cultural history is intended, just a slightly transgressive fashion statement... that's appropriation.

There are some fashion brands aimed at young people (and some high end luxury ones, too) that have fetishised sexual violence, domestic violence, prostitution, and so on, always with a woman as the objectified party. They have had women on a lead, or with fanned dollar bills arranged around her pubic area, or worse. And that was to shock, but in an edgy, cool way, not in a "this is wrong" way. The moral bankruptcy of co-opting women's abuse to sell designer clothing or scent is obvious to most women, I think. Yet when it's a similar issue around race, you get some white women making the same arguments men I knew at college made about the objectifying of violence towards women.

Intersectionality is something else I think we should care about: the idea that sexism and racism are not unrelated subjects, and that if we want women to be properly and fairly represented in society, we should probably also give a damn about race, and disability, and other groups also held back by things that really shouldn't have any role to play in whether they are good at a job, or deserve fair and equal treatment. Because the thinking that allows for women to be marginalised politically and economically is the same that allows for racist oppression, too.

BadDoGooder · 26/02/2016 11:25

vienna the lead singer of Sepultura is black, as is the singer of HED PE.
Ummm, you are right though, wrt to Metallica, Iron Maiden type metal, it is very "white" but I find it's also very "male" and "right wing", and don't listen to or like it!!

MitzyLeFrouf · 26/02/2016 11:25

I agree Stopfucking.

Kim Kardashian has her arse cosmetically inflated and suddenly big curvy bums are in fashion. Black women must be mega eye rolling at that.

Offler · 26/02/2016 11:26

DP has bum length dreads, blond/brown depending on that summer of growth (almost like dendrochronology for hair 😉). The only people who ever seem to get offended are little old ladies who tell him to have a hair cut!

He gets many compliments from a wide range of human beings.

Why does he have dreads? At the age of 18 (32 years ago) he decided he never wanted to brush his hair or go the barber ever again. His hair is very curly and dreads pretty much came naturally!!

Maryz · 26/02/2016 11:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 26/02/2016 11:30

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mudandmayhem01 · 26/02/2016 11:32

My daughter wanted her hair braided, a few black girls at school have braided hair and i suppose that is where she got the idea from. She is very fair and i thought her scalp might get sun burnt so I googled white corn rows to see if this might be issue and found out why it could be considered racist. I am not an arse and decided my DD has plenty of other hairstyles to go for that don't have potential to cause offence.

TheBalefulGroke · 26/02/2016 11:32

Sepultura are Brazilian though, so hardly surprising to not be entirely white band members!

BadDoGooder · 26/02/2016 11:33

Music is an interesting subject too.
I like a lot of ska music, and I am eternally grateful to the blending of cultures that allowed ska-punk to emerge.
Back in the early days of ska-punk (as different to ska eg The Skatalites) a lot of the bands were mixed race.
CA? An example of things only being "cool" because white people were doing it too? Or a genuine example of cultural mixing in a good way?

BadDoGooder · 26/02/2016 11:36

Yeah I know TheBaleful I was sort of using it as a way of showing how desperately you have to seek to find an even vaguely black metal band!
Literally two people off the top of my head, but most metal is shite so I don't blame anyone for not wanting to be a part of it! Grin

TheBalefulGroke · 26/02/2016 11:36

MaryZ- I have a similar issue with DS, in that he very strongly does not want to cut his hair, but only Sikh boys, or boys with cornrows are allowed long hair in his school. I have explained the significance of uncut hair for Sikhs to him, but he still sees it as unfair (and wanted to know why we can't be Sikh!). He's only 7 though, and most of the world and its rules seems unjust to him!

MitzyLeFrouf · 26/02/2016 11:37

I think school rules about hair colour and style are ridiculous.

Lanark2 · 26/02/2016 11:39

Its important to keep club symbols ansld behaviours within the club if we are ever to divide properly.

Branleuse · 26/02/2016 11:40

Its a sensitive subject, and I think a lot of it is about intent and respect.

white people or anyone taking the piss and jollying around wearing native american headdresses in the current climate, especially in the states is a complete pisstake and appropriation. Wearing your hair in braids - I dont see it so much.

Ive thought about it a lot, as im white and have dreads, and the last thing I want to do is offend people who already feel oppressed, but in my personal experience, the main people who are offended by it being appropriation are white people who tbh seem professionally offended. I imagine it has different connotations in the US though? Im not making any money nor gaining anything over anyone else for having my hair in this style
The majority of people ive ever known with dreads have been hippies, not rastas, and I also believe that dreads have been part of many cultures all over the world throughout history - rastafarianism was only invented in the 1930s.

Katenka · 26/02/2016 11:41

and then have the group that oppressed you "nick" your look/hairstyle- even though its often what gets people victimised against

Plaits are not anyone's 'look' in particular though. That's the point.

TheBalefulGroke · 26/02/2016 11:41

Ahem, some people feel the same about ska! Wink
On the subject of music, there are a heck of a lot of British Chinese children studying violin or piano, but I don't personally see this as cultural appropriation. If I took up erhu or pipa would that be offensive?

Katenka · 26/02/2016 11:44

So mud you would never let your dd have a plait in her hair? Or just corn rows?

Branleuse · 26/02/2016 11:44

the world is so connected now, how on earth can appropriation be avoided, and where is the line drawn between sharing and appropriating?