To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

I used to feel excluded by feminism when I was younger. Then I realised that I am a feminist simply because I want equality, and that no one else gets to tell me whether or not I am a feminist, and I don't have to agree with anything other than the basic belief that women are entitled to equality to be one.
Feminism is a much broader church than it is so often painted.

Thanks Jeanne. I've never really thought about it like that. I guess what I find difficult is also not just the fact that people are recommending challenging books but the implicit assumption that;
(a) I'm going to understand the language,
(b) its going to speak to my life even where it's probably written by a white, educated privileged woman (links to my point above about gender and gender struggles being far less important to me than race and class) and
(c) I have the time to read it in between working two jobs, looking after my sister's daughter who was removed from her care by SS and looking after my mum who has multiple chronic health conditions.

When feminism isn't inclusive, then who the hell is it for?

POC were excluded for years, and still are, if you look at the amount of casual white feminism that is around.

Unfortunately mainstream feminism seems to still be white, able bodied, cis focused. And it drives me mad. You can't believe in equal rights, until it's someone worse off than you. That's not feminism.

I don't think feminism is about equality I think it's to make women's lives better I don't read academic theory I don't understand it yes you will get feminist s who talk about books and papers but in generalfeminists won't look down on anybody who likes a bit of frou frou and sah to look after their children

gubbins - YY, take your point and agree it is an issue.

cis focused

What should it be focused on then if not for those born female

Jeanne I also agree with another point you made up thread that I need to get some work done today! I also don't want you to think I'm getting at you personally

I hear you.

I have been told by active 'feminists' that I am anti feminist because I make the choice to clean the house, cook meals from scratch for my family and to the do laundry etc.

The same women told me that reading 'chic lit' is akin to treason

It rumbled me at the time but now I have the last laugh as is often with those who tell you how to live your life as I am raising our sons and daughters to be for equality without making it into a 'thing' it just is how it is but also to be real and appropriate to how the real world works and never to tell anyone that what they are /something they want to do (like cleaning their house) is wrong because of what sex they are or because it does not fit wit the commentators cause

But surely that is just their opinion we all need to eat so are meant to cook for ourselves that's not feminism that's selfishness.

Why can't feminism focus on women that have lived as women/girls their entire lives?

WOC are unrepresented and their voices are often not the most vocal about their own issues, this is something mainstream media feminists must work on. This is not the fault of WOC at all.

What is a cis?

Cis means you identify as the gender (or is it sex) you were born as

Cis means you identify as the gender (or is it sex) you were born as

Gender, because apparently sex is now irrelevant (not saying it is to you Owllady, but it does seem that sex is being erased and replaced with gender, which is bullshit)

Which means that many women are now being told they are cis and enjoy all the privileges that brings, regardless of whether or not they identify with feminine gender or believe themselves privileged due to being female.

bangs feminist gavel

And the trans obsession commences..... Urgh.

Why? It's jumping on the latest bandwagon and very silly. Someone has transitioned - they're a woman.

Don't see what the fuss is.

err, you don't have to "transition" to become a woman, you can just say "I'm a woman"....

And it'll be just the same as when Rachel Dolezal said she was black.....

Fine by me.

My point being, that feminism stuff on here keeps getting over taken by trans issues. Why?

That and onanistic, pseudo-academic twaddle.

Is there not million trans threads on the go ATM don't let this be a million and 1

Agreed MrsJayy

You'd think that the trans issue was the only one worth discussing.

Though there was a thread on internalised misogyny recently - that was quite interesting.

"As a cm I work full time and still do all the housework and child care.

All the mums I work with do too. "

Yup - this is very common - women in families doing the "double shift" - bringing in money AND having responsibility for everything at home. It sucks.

"As ever middle class and richer women employ other women to do the chores and child care so they have time to spout on feminist issues and equality.

The rest of us are too bloody knackered from doing 2 jobs instead of one."

Here's another way of looking at this.

(Full disclosure: I have a once a week cleaner, an on-and-off gardener, and my children go to after school and holiday childcare clubs; I've been known to get the odd service wash done. So I am one of the people who buys in help)

DP has a full time job; I have a full time job; we also have two children; I also have a significant commute; like most people in full time jobs we work much more than 37.5 hours a week at them. Without help, there's a lot of stuff in our house that won't get done.

FIRSTLY

If I pay someone to do work then a. they get a fair wage and b. the work is acknowledged as work. I treat cleaners, childcare professionals and gardeners like the skilled pros they are, I treat them and their time with respect, I do what they ask me to do to facilitate their work, and I don't squeeze them on extras or try to take the piss. If I can't afford it, I don't ask for it. I book them in on a schedule that works for them, and they manage their own time.

This is in marked contrast to the work that gets done at home, usually by women, for free. Most women who are doing all the domestic stuff on top of a full time job do not get material reward for it, do not have their time respected or acknowledged, do not get treated like skilled professionals, do not get any respect from anyone, and are just expected to fit in however much work appears, however carelessly and thoughtlessly it is created by anyone, no matter what else they have to do with their time, and no matter how late they have to stay up at night.

Personally I think it would be nice if a culture of paying for domestic work would elevate all of us who do it, whether it is actually formally paid for or not. Our labour counts, and doing the same job as the nanny next door who is earning £30k for it (and the cleaner - and the cook - and the gardener - and the book keeper - and the financial advisor - and the tutor- and so on), is an argument towards counting it.

SECONDLY

It isn't women who create this work and then palm it off on other women. It is families who create this work, and then, typically, women who have to manage getting it done whether they pay someone else or not.

When you clean someone else's floor, you aren't cleaning a woman's floor. You are just as much cleaning a man's floor. And he hasn't even noticed, probably, it needs washing.

FINALLY

I have a lot of problems with capitalism and oppressive class structures and I don't think that any of the above is ideal. But as a person who has no choice but to operate within capitalism - I earn my money as a wage slave of capitalism, and if I didn't, I wouldn't have any - I think that paying people decently to help you, and paying them enough, and treating them with respect, is better than keeping a wife and treating her like shit.

The trans issue comes up because actual women are being sidelined in order to promote trans women. If you are born and socialised as male then you don't really understand all of women's concerns. This is evidenced by the likes of Caitlyn Jenner saying that the hardest thing about being a woman is choosing what to wear. And then getting voted 'woman of the year', a place which should have gone to an actual woman, who had done something to earn it!
Wider implications are for women in sport, who are at a biological disadvamtage to a trans woman, who is now allowed to compete in women's events. Where does that leave women's sport? None of this is helped by some trans women attempting to redifine what a woman actually is, with the use of cis in a derogatory sense. It smacks of yet another group of men putting their wishes above women's. Which is why some women take issue with it.
Personally, I believe that if you have fully transitioned, then that is a serious commitment and I would respect that person's right to use women's spaces and stand for female roles (NUS womans officer for ex).But not in sport because of the unfair biological advantage a male body (amd hormone levels) gives.
For those who haven't fully transitioned, while I respect their right to live a 'female' life, they are not women and shouldn't expect to be treated as such.

I think the trans issue is just what the OP is about feminism isn't accessible to women because we don't all agree on the same things not 1 thread on any of the feminism boards is a trans free zone it is blocking discussions IMO

I'm a feminist, I've described myself as one ever since I first heard the word. That doesn't mean I feel like I should agree with every other thing that other feminists think is right, or that they should all speak for me.
(In much the same way as I'm Catholic but I happily ignore about half the official Catholic teachings.)

I think it's only natural that within feminism there are different things that people are more or less interested in...(I guess like you could be an environmentalist and really really care about the rainforest and not think as much about pollution in your home town, equally you could be an environmentalist and really care about keeping local green spaces but not think that much about the rainforest)

So for me, I care a lot about gender stereotyping, career issues, and the affordability of childcare but I don't really think as much about other stuff unless someone mentions it because it's not an experience I've had personally.
For example say women's health issues when I've always had really average, uneventful periods...I'm happy to sign a petition but I'm equally happy to say other women know a lot more about this particular issue than me.

The discussion around trans issues is actually what prompted me to start this thread. Over the past week or so I have very much enjoyed discussing and learning about this issue in a feminist group. Discussion was free, open and inviting to all until yesterday when someone decided (rather predictably) to shut down the discussion and prescribe what was a permissable point of view for feminists. That sort of behaviour is, in my view, no different to the cries of "terf" and claims of "actual genocide" that are thrown at feminists by trans-activists. Both "sides" exhibit the same behaviour. The trans issue is deep and worth discussing but I've found over the past week that it holds up a mirror and asks some challenging questions. Questions I'd like to explore but am unable to because the self appointed feminist thought police have decided I'm not allowed to have thoughts that haven't been pre-approved by my "betters". Feminism is interesting and thought provoking and shooting itself completely in the foot by shutting down the voices it needs to learn from. Today I am just back to square one, I'm the girl who's not bright enough to have a valid opinion. It boils my piss!!

Dawn that does sound incredibly annoying. Where was this conversation taking place - the infuriating one - on mn or elsewhere?

Personally I am thinking more and more that twitter specifically (not internet conversation in general) is a really negative influence for discussion of anything remotely interesting, political, sensitive, important. I think twitter has caused horrific things to happen to political and ethical discourse, I really do

(I am not saying your thing is necessarily directly to do with twitter, that was a separate point. On the other hand, I do think twitter has affected attitudes beyond twitter itself and has indirectly damaged our capacity to have sensible conversations in many other contexts)