To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

I am, but many of the current day, modern radfems would say I am not because I believe the current fixation on equality misses the important factor of choice.

You read it here a lot: SAHM does the housework, cleaning, child rearing and the man works. Some not al, by any means, ask if that woman likes living inthe 1950s and if she has ever thought she is being taken advantage of. This might be so, in some cases, but no SAHM (or other woman) is allowed to say that they quite enjoy that split of family workload, not without a certain amount of eye rolling and denigration.

Then the whole cis thing truly annoys me. Do not add a label to me in order to make a man, who identifies so much with being female he won't commit to having surgery or any other 'feminising' traits superimposed over his masculinity, feel better about themselves.

Equality is a misleading headline. Not that it shouldn't exist or be fought for, but in that focussing on it to the exclusion of all else, the real message to women of all ages - choose what is right for you and then don't let anyone tell you you cannot do it just because you are female - is often lost.

From my perspective that is one of those cart before the horse situations.

I guess it depends whether you think equality means the same or equal.

There are several different "types" of feminism. Surely it's possible to say that you are a feminist, but don't agree with radfem ideology, and that you identify more with liberal feminism or cultural feminism or whatever.

Me? I think equal sums it up best. A home keeping woman's input to life is the same as that of a woman earning a wage.

My quiet enjoyment of ironing is much the same as DHs quiet enjoyment of climbing ladders and fixing the outside of the house. That might seem gendered to some, but as we are both capable of doing both but choose which we do routinely, it works for us. That I control the finances and he cooks is another example of our choices. We are equally capable, but choose a less traditional work arrangement there. Each according to preference, with the jobs neither like shared equally.

Culture, I would agree. There are many types of feminism, each is usually of equal value to society as a whole. It's the shouty people who call me, and others, names that have the issues. I only object to radfeminism when it loudly denigrates and ridicules the choices of any woman.

I think you need to work on your self esteem op and go find yourself some better friends.

Women are not equal in society and are still putting up with the same old crap we have put with for years. I want something different for my daughter. I don't want her to have to put up with street harassment, or be payed less.

I don't want her to be told she is more caring than a man, or more emotional, or if she expresses an opinion she is hysterical.

I don't want her to grow up in a society where women are blamed for the crimes against them.

I would like our society to acknowledge the amount of male violence and do something about it, not just expect us to enter into some sort of cognitive dissonance where male violence is not a huge problem.

I would also like men to be able to wear what the hell they like, be who they want without having to declare themselves a woman as soon as they want to wear nail polish or step outside expected male gender roles.

For all the "equalists" out there, think about what you're really saying. Should the civil rights movement have included slightly offended white people?

Someone has transitioned - they're a woman.

I disagree, (is making a fuss a bad thing?)

OurBlanche.

I'm a SAHM, with a teeny business, my husband earns the money. He's more likely to cook and iron, I'm more likely to fix the house but also to sew a button. I'm more likely to deal with school trips and children's illnesses....

We bounce along with gendered and not gendered roles, whatever or wherever our capabilities are.

radfeminism isn't the extreme feminism that I think you're describing, it's the feminism that has won the most gains for women.

"I am, but many of the current day, modern radfems would say I am not because I believe the current fixation on equality misses the important factor of choice."

I think there are / have been feminists who are mistakenly (and perhaps a bit too snottily) fixated on the value of paid work as opposed to unpaid domestic work. I don't think it's fair to characterise that as a specifically radical feminist position. I do agree though, people who think that only earning money deserves respect have got the wrong end of the stick in my opinion.

or even paid less

At base, if you believe any one of the following, then you are a feminist:

• women have a right to vote
• women have a right to be treated as people and not just property belonging to men
• women a right to the same educational opportunities as men
• women have a right to work
• women have a right to wear trousers or dresses or tinfoil outfits if they want to
• women a right to be paid equally for equal work
• women have a right to choose whom to have sex with, and not to be raped
• women have a right not to be physically abused by a partner
• women have a right to divorce or leave a partners
• women have a right to own property or make contracts as a separate legal person when married

Most of those rights have existed in England for less than 200 years. And they were hard won.

Of course nowadays there are many varieties of feminism - we need to talk about it in the plural, as feminisms. There are conservative feminisms and radical feminisms, right-wing and left-wing varieties, essentialist and constructivist types, transphobic and trans-inclusive kinds to name but a few. Of course, I have my own take on them - being a feminist doesn't mean I have to agree with anyone else who badges themselves as concerned about gender! Your OP is a bit like saying 'I hate all politics because Boris Johnson is a tosser'.

I think feminists want work in the home to be valued and fight hard for that.

The reality is that it is men who do not value work at home, look at all the threads on the relationships boards where the man loses all respect for his oh when she becomes a mother, there is your real, actual problem.

Shovetheholly - I was with you up till the last line, which came across as mean.

The OP has started an interesting discussion. Her subsequent posts have added more nuance to her original post - pretty normal for a conversation.

I thought it was a good analogy to be honest, and yes B.J. is a tosser!

Can't disagree with BJ being a tosser!

It just seemed a bit likely to be taken the wrong way (it didn't seem intended unkindly) on a thread that has so far been interesting for the bits where people are quite carefully trying to discuss issues that are often misunderstood.

Hmm. That sounds as clear as mud, but currently being jumped on by excited 3 year old so it's as good as it'll get right now. FWIW the more I reread the more I think I was prob overreacting. I'll blame Thunderbirds.

I was with you up till the last line, which came across as mean

I found that the most important bit too

Crikey, I thought I had qualified which branch of feminism I have a small problem with!

Still, it does show that 'feminism' is a very subjective term and we all have our own understanding of it. Which is probably as it should be.

are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm

I'm all of these, well not the glitter, but I won't let anyone tell me I can't be a feminist.

Oh I should add, I don't think I'm stupid.

Shovetheholly... I don't hate anything. Not even Boris. I'm just interested in hearing other women's thoughts and experiences.

Poster upthread asking why feminism is only about women, and what about the menz. I think some people genuinely don't notice the inequalities in society. They don't notice that particular groups suffer more than others. They honestly don't. There is no point calling them ignorant or whatever, as they are honestly not aware of social problems. They have never seen them. When they read stories e.g. woman gets killed by abusive husband they just think that's a sad story how tragic, they honestly don't have any awareness of a bigger context or a trend of things that happen more to certain groups than others.

And you can't post links to research to educate them, see what happened on the mansplaining thread when a poster tried to link to research. People just feel patronized and cross. Nobody likes being preached too and it's hard to point out social trends without sounding preachy. So people remain genuinely convinced that the problem doesn't exist.

So loads of people think sexual equality should be about men's rights too, racial equality should be about white people's rights too, disabled people should be treated exactly the same as everybody else, no special treatment just because they're disabled, etc. To them everyone is equal, and there are no social problems, so no need for 'feminism' or such. They genuinely don't see any social problems, they live in a kind of happy bubble, so when they hear about concerns (racism, sexism, feminism etc) they genuinely just wonder what people are banging on about.

At base, if you believe any one of the following, then you are a feminist

Sorry, but that statement is wrong. It doesn't matter what I agre with on your list - if I chose not to identify as a feminist, then I am not one. I find it it extremely hypocritical that feminist say that they fight for women to have a choice, but say that we have no choice in being a feminst or not based on our views. I believe that you should treat those, as you would want to be treated yourself - I'm not a Christian. I believe in looking after the environment, finding better, sustainable ways to use fuel and such - I've never voted Green Party. My views and values are my own - don't put me into your box because we may agree on some things.

None of those things are feminism. Feminism is wanting equality and to be treated with equal respect. Thats all it is.

So I'm a feminist. My brand of feminism is inclusive, not exclusive. I own feminism. Its mine.

I genuinely don't understand women who don't identify as feminists. I can see their thinking but not their motivations.

I think that maybe the women who don't identify as feminist are probably the ones who think equality has already been achieved. The ones who live in a little bubble as kawliga said,where they never notice any injustice or see it connected to a bigger picture.