To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

With the name thing, I get very annoyed at the assumption that babies get their father's last name, even when it doesn't sound as nice as the mum's name and even when the parents are not married.
When it comes to choosing or changing names, I strongly believe the key factor should be which name you like the sound of most and which goes best with your/baby's first name!

Comeonsummer As ever middle class and richer women employ other women to do the chores and child care so they have time to spout on feminist issues and equality.

Yes! I used to clean the house of a white female professor for £5 cash-in-hand. She was a very well respected feminist scholar. I think the irony was totally lost on her.

I've never been really interested in feminism - I guess if I felt I was being disadvantaged by being a woman it might be different, but I never have.

Same here Madison. My experience in life has been very different. Sometimes when I read on here the issues people have I feel I am on another planet.

I've never even questioned it. I am a feminist. I believe in equal rights for women. I believe the society I live in is patriarchal and that women are very far from having anything like equal rights, even in the privileged West.

However, I do feel excluded from lots of the current strands of feminist thought and activism. I find the academic arguments difficult to follow at times, and I feel a bit stuck between the old school of feminists like Greer et al and the young, 'Twitter Warrior' feminists and student activists - none of whom I feel speak for me or raise issues that are the most pertinent to my life.

I die a little inside every time the trans issue is raised, too

Posies... With respect the Op wrote this then put three children in the car, took them to school, went to muck out and attend to our horses, came home, had a shower and has only just sat down to have breakfast . So I'll catch up in a minute. If that's OK?

PosieReturningParker - see, people like you are the problem. I haven't seen anyone 'slagging off' feminism here, just ones explaining why they are feminist, and other explaining why it isn't for them or how they feel it doesn't include them (with very vaild points). No one is saying there aren't issues for women, or they are being ignored. That isn't the question here.

I've occasionally felt that certain versions of feminism don't include me, but I don't particularly mind that. I don't need to be a member of every club.

I do feel put off when people say unpleasant things about feminists, though - when people say feminists seem 'scary and angry' or 'hysterical' or 'shrill'. Then, I feel as if those people are just trying to make other women feel small.

And, frankly, I think that's a shitty thing to do.

Let's keep super quiet about the gender pay gap, abortion laws, reproductive health, FGM, rape and anything else feminists have fought for or are still fighting.

Stop trying to be clever and draw attention to yourself posie

one basic principle of feminism is one I subscribe to. Unfortunately some of the lengths to which it is taken and some of the people claiming to be feminist keep me firmly away. The same thing seems to be the case for most of the women (and men) I know.

Bert I'm about to go out for a bit but I'm interested in what you said below

There is actually more to feminism then simply wanting equality between the sexes.

Wanting simple equality is "equalism". Feminism is more complicated and nuanced than that.

^^

Would you mind explaining this a bit more please? In what way is there more to feminism then simply wanting equality?

Posies

There you just proved the ops point. Every decent person would care about those issues. Not the preserve of you or any other so called feminist.

Your mother sounds horrible, op. That must have been grim.

For me, feminism is something that's given me a community. It's helped me understand why certain things seem unfair, or wrong, and yet don't seem to change. It's helped me look at certain people in my life and understand why they are the way they are - especially, why my mum can find things so hard. I think it's made me a better teacher, because it's made me think really hard about what 'equality' means in practice, and what hidden issues there are for all sorts of groups of people (not just women).

Because of all of that, I do feel upset and defensive when people talk about how they're put off feminism by people they see as being angry, or domineering or arrogant. I'm not saying they're wrong to feel like that. It's just, I think some people have this idea that feminists are all hard as nails and therefore somehow fair game.

I also have an issue with, or rather don't understand, feminism's focus on women's 'choice' and how far that extends. I feel that if I ask about this on the MN feminist boards or to a feminist IRL, I'll be ridiculed and told I don't understand feminism (which further compounds the sense of exclusion I feel).

For example, a friend of a colleague had a baby recently and we were chatting about having babies, bringing up children etc. I said that I wouldn't give up work if I had children for various different reasons. My friend, who I see as a great feminist (i.e. committed and understands all the arguments and nuances) said 'I think women should be allowed to do whatever they want when it comes to motherhood'. This really stuck with me because I can't make sense of it. Is that what feminism stands for?

I do feel put off when people say unpleasant things about feminists, though - when people say feminists seem 'scary and angry' or 'hysterical' or 'shrill'. Then, I feel as if those people are just trying to make other women feel small.

And, frankly, I think that's a shitty thing to do.

But there are feminist who do behave in this way - you find people like this in every instance of a large group of people under the same 'banner' as it were. 'Hysterical' for example - women who say that if anyone is allowed to 'declare themselves female', male rapists will be allowed into female prison. Something I have seen put across here on many a thread.

As for 'making other women feel small' - women who hear other women do not see themselves as feminist manage to do this as well. I was once compared to someone 'on the same level as a homophobe or racist' for say I did not identify as feminist. So you see, 'unpleasant' can work on both sides.

'I think women should be allowed to do whatever they want when it comes to motherhood'. This really stuck with me because I can't make sense of it. Is that what feminism stands for?

Can you elaborate?

It was grim, Helmet. There are other issues in our relationship but that specific one has been really damaging. Like my mother I am fully in support of the serious fundamental issues of feminism but I really struggle with the concept of fighting for women with one hand and oppressing them with the other. Gubbins post is excellent and really gets the message across. Posie sadly has just made assumption and gone straight for the throat which just proves my thinking. All I had to do was leave the house and go about my day and I'm being lept on as a shit stirring traitor to the sisterhood!

Thankyou everyone, it's really interesting reading your views and experiences

gubbins, when you say you think you'll be ridiculed and feel excluded, I get that, but to me, it just makes me feel too scared to engage with you, because I feel as if you're telling me I'm a horrible person. But I'll give it a go, if you'll excuse me not promising to keep coming back to it?

I would not have said feminism stands for women being able to make any choice. I would expect a decent society to take children into care if a parent made choices that endangered them, for example.

But I wonder if your friend was thinking of the way that debate on working/staying home has become polarised? So maybe what she was getting at was, there's nothing un-feminist about being a stay-at-home parent? Which I think is fair and right. Someone has to look after children, whether that's a nursery or a parent or whatever.

That is interesting Gubbins, because men can't do whatever they want when it comes to fatherhood either. At least one of the parents has to financially support the child and if the mum gets total say, that's not equality, it's preferential treatment.

That said, women who sah are long term disadvantaged financially and career wise and when a couple split, the man is not made to pay what it actually costs to support his children. Maybe your friend is saying that given any negative consequences of sah parenthood tend to affect women more than men, women should primarily get to make the choice to sah.

MrsG - I don't disagree that all sorts of people can make others feel small. Just saying that this is how those sorts of comments can come across.

I don't think it is 'hysterical' to worry about rape in prisons. It might be misguided, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with 'hysterical', because that's a word that implies women are irrational because they're women.

I do think that half of the problem within feminism today is that it has been taken over to an extent by social justice warriors and that puts a lot of people off and stifles debate. However this is a problem across many theories and debates at the moment.

The social justice warrior movement seems to want to make everyone a victim. I am not a victim, I am a strong woman who is capable of listening to all sides of a debate without the need for a 'safe space' and I can survive being offended by other peoples opinions. That is not to say we shouldn't strive to be polite and civil, just not scream that everyone is racist / transphobic / homophobic / add your own insult here when they have a different opinion to you.

MrsGently, the example you give on male bodied people in prisons is not hysteria, it is already causing problems in Canada albeit in womens shelters (which should be an actual safe space).

There are many issues facing feminists today but intersectionality is not allowing us to discuss them openly just in case someone is offended and upset and that is what is putting many of the people I know off feminism.

JeanneDeMontbaston, I think you are taking 'hysterical' in the wrong way. Of course it's not so to be worried about rape in prison, however the situation I gave is one that has been debated with no fact and all based on scare-mongering. I don't think it's because a bunch of women are having 'silly, paranoid thoughts' - the the same as when certain Christians think the world will end/society will crumble because of gay people being allowed to marriage and such. Some groups value their rights above all others, and will use 'hysterical' reasoning to fight their cause.

I think that's probably true, glen.

MrsG - ah, I've not seen the same debates, then. Those I've seen have been based on real worries - glen's probably thinking of the same.

I'd still say 'hysterical' is an unnecessarily pejorative word, though. I know it can be taken different ways, but for me, it's rooted in attitudes to women that I find damaging.

Not to say you never come across people who are transphobic and utterly unable to listen to reason, obviously - I just think there's a range of views on this one, and some seem to me quite reasonable.

I think it is fair that there is concern over transgender rights, as these are coming at the expense of women (in sport and in terms of women's personal space and representation. I do not understand how there can be a transgender NUS womens officer or how Caitlyn Jenner can be woman of the year), not at the expense of the men who make life very hard for transgender people. Transgender people experience violence from men but instead of this being addressed, women are told to budge up and fix this for transgender people. So I think it is right there is concern about this and it doesn't automatically follow that feminists who have concern are trans phobic or unsympathetic to the desire to live as women.