To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

The trouble with feminism is that it's a bait and switch label.

Whenever discussions like this come up, feminism is always described as simply "believing in male and female equality."

If, however, you look at feminist books, feminist blogs, feminist FB pages, courses on feminism at universities, it becomes clear that in practice/reality, feminism is more a sort of collective term for what might be described as "Extreme regressive-left ideology which draws heavily on Marxism, identity politics and cultural relativism."

I am a political centrist who loathes the regressive left and thinks that Marxism, identity politics and cultural relativism are a pile of horse manure. So of course it is really really hard for me to look at feminismat least in its current formand feel that this speaks for me.

I could identify with the feminism that was simply about equality under the law and so on, so this is nothing to do with ungratefulness towards women who fought for these things. As they say, "I didn't leave feminism; feminism left me."

Gubbins- I might have misunderstood your question but I would take your friend's comment to mean that we shouldn't judge women for being SAHMs or WOHMs, for working full-time, part-time, breastfeeding, bottle feeding, only having wooden toys or having flashing plastic ones etc because what works for one family won't work for another and we should just be supportive of each other and pleased that we are able to make choices. Women are judged so much that we should just support people's decisions and have some solidarity.

I personally think there is huge inequality when it comes to motherhood though!

I'm a feminist. I believe in equality between the sexes. Being completely honest, though, I sometimes don't understand some feminist issues, and although I'm passionate about equality, I don't feel educated enough in feminism to participate in some of the discussions.

TheNew - you and I obviously have very different beliefs (I'm a die-hard leftie), but I agree with you that sometimes, the 'it's just about equality' line can do more harm than good.

I think where it's helpful, is when people feel as if feminism has to be very academic, which it doesn't, I don't think. If someone is looking, as it were, for 'permission' to feel like a feminism, it's helpful. Or I found it so.

It's not so helpful when it's trotted out as the sum total of feminism.

Jeanne gubbins, when you say you think you'll be ridiculed and feel excluded, I get that, but to me, it just makes me feel too scared to engage with you, because I feel as if you're telling me I'm a horrible person. But I'll give it a go, if you'll excuse me not promising to keep coming back to it?

But if you don't ridicule and tell me that I don't understand enough or that I should read a load of academic mumbo jumbo, then there's absolutely no indication at all that I'm calling you a horrible person.

Kat There's nothing really to elaborate. My friend said that and I was really confused because men don't have a choice when it comes to fatherhood. No-one would say 'men should be able to do whatever they want when it comes to fatherhood' so why are women allowed such a choice when it comes to motherhood? Someone needs to work and support that child that you've chosen to bring into the world. Saying it's the woman's choice how that working pattern will be removes autonomy from the father and also compounds the idea that parenthood is more women's job than men's, which then surely plays into bigger debates about equal pay, value of parenting, flexible labour etc. which are so central to the feminist cause?!

For me feminism is simply about equality and challenging and hopefully one day ending everyday sexism.

So in the example of taking your dhs name on marriage, fine if that's what you choose to do. I would like to see he day come when it's equally as socially acceptable for the man to take his wifes surname.

Until that day comes 'choosing' to take your dh name is in many cases only an illusion of choice and there is deep rooted societal pressure to go with 'the norm' I.e taking your husbands name.

How can it be a true choice when men generally don't take their wife's name?

I agree there are a range of views, and I have said that I know there are still serious issues for women. However, the reason I picked up on your post was purely that I cannot agree that some feminists are not hysterical or just angry for anger sake. As a pervious poster said, it's not a case of 'we're all female, therefore all on the same side', too many factors come in to play in other areas. I will not change my opinion on some women's views about transgenderism though - some things I have heard and seen are based on nothing but fear and prejudice, and a hatered that another group is fighting for equal rights where some femninst think they have no right to do so.

Some people are idiots, I'm sure some people in the black rights movement in the USA were complete assholes but it doesn't stop me being a black ally when it comes to racism.

I'm not here to defend feminism and I don't speak for feminists, I speak for myself. Feminism, and in particular the feminist boards on MN, have taught me lots and lots about privilege and what it means.

I don't think too many feminists are really concerned with whether women work or stay home when they have children, but more whether their choice is a free choice. Most of the SAHMs I know, and I'm one, have made the choice because our DH's our earn us and so it's not a genuine choice (although mine is a very happy one).

Feminism is a broad church, but the ultimate goal is the same.

gubbins - well, I hope I didn't tell you either of those things. But you said you wouldn't ask the question, because you've already formed a judgement about what you think I'll say - that's why I feel like that!

I feel as if I've been judged before I had a chance to do anything at all.

I know it's not really about 'me' - I'm just trying to explain that I think feminists do sometimes feel a bit put off by this stuff too.

I think sometimes, people imagine that if you're any kind of 'ist' you've got very clear views, and you won't be shaken, and you won't get upset about how people view you, because you're already so certain you're right. And I think that's only true of a tiny (and maybe rather annoying) minority of any group.

Okay, but no one has said yet what exactly feminism is, if it can't be summed up by saying it is a desire for equality of opportunity between men and women.

MrsG, why are feminists 'hysterical'?

I can believe some people are angry for the sake of it - as others have said, that's true of any group of people you could care to name, and I've certainly never asked you to agree that feminists are any different.

But I don't think any calling anyone 'hysterical' is helpful. It's buying into the idea that women are inferior purely because they are women, and I can't believe that.

There's nothing really to elaborate. My friend said that and I was really confused because men don't have a choice when it comes to fatherhood. No-one would say 'men should be able to do whatever they want when it comes to fatherhood' so why are women allowed such a choice when it comes to motherhood?

I have never heard anyone say men don't have a choice. If a man wants to be a sahp it's a decision they make for the family. Men and women should have a choice. It may be that the compromise is both working part time.

Did she say 'it's entirely up to the mother?'

Because it's sounds like she said that what the mother does is the mothers choice. If a woman wants to be a wohm it's her choice. Which it should be. Sometime finances may effect the choice available.

NN - I doubt we can say exactly. It's a big conversation, I think.

I don't agree with every feminist why should I believe women and men should be treated equally

I find it odd when women distance themselves as they don't like what some feminists have said and don't want to be labelled the same as them let's face it scary feminists who men might not like what does it matter you know what you beleive in or is it so worrying you might be classed as a scary so called man hating feminist

I see what you mean Jeanne of course.

However, when I have asked questions before IRL and on the feminist boards, nearly every time I've been told to read some academic garbage and made to feel like I'm not clever or informed enough to join in the debate so that's where my hesitation (and, okay, judgement I guess) comes from.

Gubbins I think it says more about your own feelings about yourself than anything every feminist ever anyone else has said.

Feminism is for everyone, not just academics or wealthy people.

I think feminism is about much more than equality. We live in a society where female equality is enshrined by law. Yet that hasn't eradicated the many disadvantages faced by women.

The fact the rape conviction rate stays at 6 per cent. That you're more likely to be in poverty if you're female. The fact that non-payment of child support is so accepted in a world where 92 per cent of lone parents are female. Where everyday sexism is still so prevalent. Where women still do on average 75 per cent of housework even when also working full time.

Feminism imo serves to fight cultural inequality as much as anything, which means first recognising that women aren't held culturally as important as men. Highlighting that often means talking about male privilege and that is very unpalatable to a lot of people - including women - who benefit from it. Including me tbh altho I support feminism because of the bigger picture implications which benefit far more people long term including my own Dd.

JeanneDeMontbaston, I have already answered that. Please don't phrase it as why are feminists 'hysterical'? - it reads as if I find all feminists to be screaming, crying, hormonal women (which I obviously do not). Every group have those who can be seen as 'hysterical' though - taking a point and making it out to be far bigger/worse than they it is. I also gave an example of this in another post. Many women/feminist have valid points to make, and continue to try and make the world a better place. Some women like to talk nonsense and spread scary stories just to get people on side, and happen to call themselves feminists. Nothing wrong with calling a feminist hysterical, if that's what they are being.

Posie What do you mean that it says more about my own feelings?
Feminism isn't for everyone, Posie. It can feel like a very very exclusive club that women of colour, poor women or poorly educated women are not particularly welcome in. Or at least that the club doesn't cater for women like us.

I don't agree, posie, I think it's a fair point. I just feel it's an awkward debate on both sides.

I can remember first commenting on MN feminism years ago, and feeling intimidated by what some people seemed to have read. I still don't think it is productive to bash someone over the head with 'ooh, have you not read Dworkin/Daly/whatever, you idiot you'. But I also think it can be hard to distinguish that from a poster who's enthusiastic saying 'ooh, you must read Dworkin/Daly/whatever' and thinking they're being helpful and passing on a recommendation.

I just think, as with most things, you get the most out of a conversation when both sides are willing to recognise the other person might not be trying to catch them out.

I'm sorry for the way I phrased it, MrsG - take your point, it was clumsy.

But I do think there's a lot wrong with calling feminists hysterical. It's saying they are wrong because they are women. I can't see how that can be justified.

I ought to go do some work, but one last thing (before I give up on work and end up coming back ... ).

gubbins, something I notice on here sometimes, is that a lot of people sound as if they have a lot of formal education when they don't. And I'm sure the other way around too.

I agree with pp who say the feminism board feels intimidating. Sometimes I read the threads and feel tired by it all. I absolutely believe in equality but also feel it's really nice when anyone man or woman holds a door open , I also want to take my fiances name because I love him and it feels traditional ( some I like) and a togetherness thing . Of course I'm against fgm rrape and all the other appalling issues raised earlier but for example the poster thread about keeping safe when you're out with friends . Everyone was up in arms about it and it seemed perfectly fine to me . But I couldn't be arsed saying because you get roasted by everyone trying to convince you how backwards you are in your thinking etc. It feels like feminism should be common sense to any sensible person today but instead you need to hang your hat on it and be a bit angry about it to 'really' be a feminist. Sadly I too think it has negative connotations so say that's what you are .

JeanneDeMontbaston - I cannot agree. On that bases, saying anything negative about feminist is saying 'they are wrong because they are women'. Sometimes feminist are wrong and it's ok to say so, and point out why.

As with my previous example - a few years ago, when America was discussing equal rights for gay people (marriage and such), the fundemental right wing made that awful video called 'A Storm Is Coming'. It basically went on about how traditional values would be destroyed if gay people where allowed to have the same rights as straights. Would you not say that was a 'hysterical' reaction to something perfectly normal, that would not and did not end up having any impact on said straight people? I see similar views popping up in feminisim, I do see it as 'hysterical' reactions.