To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

So many interesting posts! I had never heard of political lesbianism before. So much to think about.

Anyway... someone mentioned Wep. Personally I think their manifesto is embarrassingly weak. They seem to be the equality party run by women not the equality for women party. The WEP Bath Facebook was a good example of that. It's dominated by a young feminist and her trans friend who shout down and delete anything they don't like. Ironic to see "no platforming" coming from a feminist and a trans woman working together! The comment from the WEP representative says bizarre things about how they can't answer people's genuine questions because they've got to do the dinner or they've got a headache. They might as well gift wrap that and send it straight to Ian Hyslop! So much potential, so totally missing the mark.

With regard to very young women not wanting to label themselves "feminist" I wonder if it's because they have reaped the benefits of feminism but don't yet have the life experience to appreciate why they need them.

honestly unless a certain aspect really catches my interest, i find a lot of social and political movements tiresome as it all gets a little petty, like in our actual government i saw a video of what i believe was the house of commons with Corbyn giving a speech saying he was in Brussels last week talking to other politicians, and he said "do you know what they said to me"
a conservative MP shouted "who are you" cue the whole hall laughing, i find it all infantile, and most are bought down to infantile levels which like i said i find tiresome, Therefore i only take a big interest when it gets close to elections etc.

"Employment law is geared towards special rights for women to be able to work part time, refuse night shifts etc because they are more likely to have to care for children. "

Eh? Flexible working is available for parents and has been for many years! DH did a request at least 8 years ago, same time I did mine.

Well, fair enough, wah, but if you don't want to take much of an interest then it's hard to see how you will get a rounded view.

I expect that statement makes me a meanie!

no i understand it and i used to look at some feminist stuff, Mens Rights Movement stuff, and also politics with Labour/ Conservative/ Green / UKIP etc, and liked to discuss certain parts, but it does just seem to go to infantile levels and most either if i were discussing or reading another discussion would never accept anything the opposition says in case just in case it weakened their position, so it wasn't about further understanding it was just like reiterating opinions to people who wouldn't even consider changing their stance or considering.

for example i saw feminists use buzz words to derail things against men by using gendered terms which aren't isolated to a single sex, or when insisting all men go to consent classes growing up dismiss men when they say "but its only a small majority that would do that, and just derail by going oh "not all men again" which in fact it was important to the men discussing because by saying all men should go to consent classes, insinuates that essentially all men have it in them to go to be racists, but totally negates that women also rape.

then men derail feminists using their similar tactics. then politically, you had people calling all UKIPers racist (i thought their stance was) Conservatives were only out for themselves and made to look the scum of the earth because apparently they hated the poor, and a lot of labour supporters seemed to want to be painted as evangelists in some items i read.

no matter what the issue i just find it goes infantile and not about sharing beliefs more just shouting down others.

But then, isn't it also infantile to judge feminism by a couple of celebrity comediennes?

funnily enough Seuss i'd say this was the most reasoned and rationale discussion about an issue like that i've had in a while, and i enjoyed it, hopefully it wasn't too bad for you and Matilda.

even on Mumsnet i find it a little overbearing often

it would be if that was all i was basing it on, as i said i hear and read other things, and these women typify things that i don't agree with, its not that i assume what feminism is like just from them, its that i hear and read things and then having these women shown to me as typically feminist and i don't agree with their actions it adds another layer, yes there are other better women but there are also worse. and even without taking Lena and Amy into consideration i still have issues with it

Glad you enjoyed it

Hi Dr Seuss
I had better read up about Radfem (blush).
I wasn't referring to flexible working though but rather how the equality laws are applied. In particular the female soldier who won a sex discrimination case against the army after she was discharged for refusing a tour of duty because she had a child. (In fact she had been treated exactly as a male soldier would have been. )
In any case while a lot of employers officially agree to flexible workingetc my husband was just about laughed out of his HR department when he requested the transfer of my maternity leave to him. He got it though!

Then that is the law being applied shittily, just as it is sometimes on eg equal pay or discriminating in hiring or promoting pregnant women.

The example you used originally was about night shifts and that would be equal for parents. I also don't see why a man with a dependent child would be treated differently by the military under the law, though I agree more women end up as single parents with residency.

...which may be why it was seen as sex discrimination as more women are in that position.

I think these questions are actually a derail now, if you don't mind my saying

I don't mind you saying that at all matilda. I think you've been extremely patient and polite in your explanations.

Was it this case, as the crux of this includes racial as well as sex discrimination and the judge ruling that more could have been done to support her with relatives giving childcare?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/7584666/Single-mother-soldier-within-her-rights-to-miss-training-over-childcare.html

Yes I think that was the one I was thinking of. There were multiple elements but she did win the sex discrimination claim.
I apologise for the night shift example which was pre the current Equality Act. I'm cracking on a bit and went to law college a long time ago! I don't practice employment law, obvs!

I find it similar to when people say they aren't interested in politics, generally because 'they're all the same and they're rude to each other at PMQs and I switch off.'

I don't care whether people vote or not. In truth I'm sickened by those pious threads that always spring up around election times with posters bleating: 'is this what Emily Davidson threw herself under the King's horse for? For you to be more interested in voting in the X-Factor than for your local councillor?'

But I can't see how you can exist as a person who uses health care, education, work and payment, have a legal framework and whatever and not be interested in politics. You are. I don't care whether you vote but you can't say you don't have views on those things.

The same thing applies to women who say they aren't interested in feminism.

Too true, limited. Also heartily agree with pposter who talked about young women reaping the benefits of early feminism but lacking the life experience to appreciate the continuing need to advocate our cause. Absolutely! How one can be a woman and not a feminist (or at least to self declare as having an interest in women's rights) is beyond me!

Limited. Yes a million times

Thanks. My voting record is chequered. I've always lived in a one-party constituency and it's never been in my favour. They weigh the opposition's votes round here.

I do always cast my vote into the void at General Elections but rarely rouse myself for local elections. Plus, inconveniently the governing party does a good job and having met the would-be representatives from my preferred party...well let's just say I wouldn't trust them with my gerbil for the weekend. I just can't bring myself to vote for the other side though, even though my local councillor is my next door neighbour and is a very nice man and so is his wife.

I will be voting in the forthcoming EU stay or go vote. Wild horse wouldn't drag my preference from me because I don't want to be accused of bullying anyone into complying with my wishes.

If, however, you look at feminist books, feminist blogs, feminist FB pages, courses on feminism at universities, it becomes clear that in practice/reality, feminism is more a sort of collective term for what might be described as "Extreme regressive-left ideology which draws heavily on Marxism, identity politics and cultural relativism

I am a political centrist who loathes the regressive left and thinks that Marxism, identity politics and cultural relativism are a pile of horse manure. So of course it is really really hard for me to look at feminismat least in its current formand feel that this speaks for me

I could identify with the feminism that was simply about equality under the law and so on, so this is nothing to do with ungratefulness towards women who fought for these things. As they say, "I didn't leave feminism; feminism left me.

That sums up my views too. Plus the idea that only feminists care about abortion rights, fgm, the undesirability of legalising prostitution or strip clubs, etc, etc.

I think it's likely that some people who find MN feminist boards frightening are just scared of their thinking being showed up to the light

And this - if you don't proclaim you are a feminist it's because you are a bit hard of thinking.

What I meant there was that you can pick and mix in life and we do it all the time. People have no problem with this.

It's only in relation to feminism you hear: 'I once paid a lot of money to listen to Germaine Greer and because I didn't like what I heard, I reject all feminists ever, for all time' or 'Some silly girls at college were mean about my dad and hurtful to me so I reject all feminists for all time too.' Or 'I shared a house with three other girls at university and they weren't very nice.'

It's interesting that some posters say feminism is not relevant to them because it's a narrow, middle -class , white club.

I am white, middle class, highly educated and I frequently feel it is not relevant to me either. Not because I am reaping the benefits of what has already been achieved but because of other white, middle - class women telling me how terrible it is to be a woman - telling me I must have experienced all manner of terrible things. And I think that bears no resemblance to my life, nor to the lives of my friends and family. The following is a selection of what being a woman means apparently. None of this resonates with me at all.

I am pro-choice, so far as the "sex industry" I expect I am what "pro-sex feminists" label as a "swerf" but I cannot identify with the litany of misery involved in being a woman.

For me personally, it's not being thought of as an actual fully functioning human being

Society is built around the default that male is normal. So female is abnormal. That's how patriarchy works

I used to model, I'm tall with a typically "feminine" figure and I dress in a typically "feminine" way. I know now that if I was less conventionally attractive, if I wanted to live in lovely comfortable large shirts and jeans and fleeces, I would be listened to even less, patronised even more

And in answer to the question, yes, and I wonder what it must be like to just be able to walk down the street and not even think about nastiness from other people

There are women who collude with the patriarchy and enable misogyny. I see no reason why they should not be called out on it. A woman is called a slut if she does not conform with society's norms of female sexuality. A "slut" is not conforming with or endorsing the patriarchy and is therefore rejected. A "cool girl" or a "handmaiden" is. And is therefore welcomed into the patriarchy with open arms. Thereby undermining everything that feminism stands

So that women can talk about how we are abused, humiliated and denied full human status without constantly have to prioritize or acknowledge the fact that it hurts the poor menz feelings when women talk about our distress, our suffering, our fear, our anger and our damaged souls

Men do not accept women as human. They also do not accept transmen as human

Add to this the fact that I have to be forever careful when walking home alone ... that I cannot travel as much as I would like ...

Oh, and always having to worry about sexual harrassment and worse if I apply for a job with a male employer. That one is bad for my finances as well

in a way i admire them for their dedication to what they feel will further their cause, i just don't see that it would.

I always find it helpful to remember that some people are fucking bonkers wahh but to respect their decisions and follow my own path. Which in this case is that I am a feminist regardless of what other feminists think.

*What I meant there was that you can pick and mix in life and we do it all the time. People have no problem with this.

It's only in relation to feminism you hear: 'I once paid a lot of money to listen to Germaine Greer and because I didn't like what I heard, I reject all feminists ever, for all time' or 'Some silly girls at college were mean about my dad and hurtful to me so I reject all feminists for all time too.' Or 'I shared a house with three other girls at university and they weren't very nice.'*

It's not just the odd person or the occasional experience, though. My experience of feminism "experiences"the blogs and FB pages and sites and books and courses I mentionedis that the vast, vast majority espouse world views that I don't agree with and think are silly.

Example: Do I think women should be paid the same as men for the same work? Of course.

Do I agree with the spiel on the pay gap which is common/usual in most feminist spaces? No, quite honestly. I think some of it is wrong.

The argument being made by almost every feminist source I have ever seen is that the pay gap is basically about some meanie somewhere deciding to discriminate...just because. Because they are evil, and hate women.

The economic data, however, suggests that it is actually a lot more complicated than that.

There almost certainly is an element of direct discrimination (and this is completely wrong and shocking).

But the bulk of the difference appears to be arising from different choices made in further education, different feelings about work/life balance, differences in how prepared women and men are to work unpleasant/dangerous but lucrative jobs, differences between men and women in terms of willingness to work extreme hours or desire to take time out of the workplace to raise children, and so on.

It would be better to focus on these areas if we want to start closing this gap, rather than just simplistic slogans about women being robbed of xxx cents per minute or whatever.

Any attempt to discuss this on the average feminist site or FB page is liable to result first in being screamed and shouted at, and then in getting banned for your opinions.

I have better things to do with my time.