To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

"Never heard of political lesbians before. What do they do about having babies? Presumably men are okay for that?"

I knew some back in the day. It's sort of my era. Sperm donation- often from gay men.

Sorry, matilda.

I had read your post the way you summarise it came across - but only because I've heard women say this is a thing that puts them off feminism, the idea of women giving up on sex with men because they think it's wrong.

YY, that is a great summary.

Political lesbianism sounds very commited and exhausting its having to upkeep a lifestyle just because

why can't you just live with someone without the sex part then ? Why does it have to involve lesbianism ? Struggling to see what is feminist in particular about that aspect of it....i think the thread is being derailed somewhat.

well - if you aren't having sex with someone it's hard a lesbian relationship then is it ??

*hardly

regardless, having lived with 3 other females for 4 years at uni, i can't really recommend it all that highly tbh.

I was once told that there was such a thing as positive and negative brand image. If a Korean car were exactly as good as a German one, it would still have to be sold at a lower price, because the brand image would be weaker.

I think "feminism" like all political and religious labels, has a brand image that affects its popularity. I suspect it's brand image has always been negative, and that's why the group of people who identify as feminist has always been smaller than the group who meet any definition of it.

The argument that people shouldn't reject the label because of some off-putting examples of feminism they have encountered isn't going to persuade people who don't like the brand. The people making that argument are starting from the position that feminism=good, therefore conclude that bad behavior must be treated as an exception. The people they are talking to perceive feminism as a toxic brand, for them the negative examples aren't exceptions, if they correlate with the brand image. They are evidence of its accuracy. Someone can agree that they are feminist, by some definition, but still not want to be described as such, because it damages them in the eyes of other people. Self-described feminists will fail to understand this, because they don't see the brand as toxic.

A brand owned by an organization can improve it's brand image, but no organization is responsible for feminism, so I doubt it's brand-image will ever be turned around. Or even made well-defined. One can get people to agree they are X, where X is a definition of feminism that doesn't mention the word feminism, but as long as significant number of other people associate negative characteristics with the word feminism, people won't want to self-describe as feminist.

(Have to run now, hope what I was trying to say survived my editing.)

You don't have to be a feminist to believe in equal rights for women
But that's what feminism is

If you believe in equal rights for women, you are a feminist. It's the word that describes that belief/philosophical position.

If lesbian separatists want to go and live outside of society it's up to them. As long as no one is harmed I don't see why it's anyone else's business.

Sorry, matilda, my fault for the derail!

who stands to gain most from a moment that was conceived to being equality to women being portrayed as a group of angry, ugly, unreasonable women who hate men and want supremacy over them

I fear that if I answer, I may be branded as an angry, ugly, unreasonable man-hater

*You don't have to be a feminist to believe in equal rights for women
But that's what feminism is 

If you believe in equal rights for women, you are a feminist. It's the word that describes that belief/philosophical position.*

I think of feminism not as egalitarian I think it is equal rights from a feminine perspective, egalitarianism is equal rights for all, and feminism is a branch of that from a feminine side and as most feminists although it's said it cares about males to, in actuality most don't care, that's why I believe there is a male and female branch of egalitarianism to make it fully equal

"I do think feminism has a poor brand image, yes. The interesting question for me though, is why?"

Yup.

"I do think feminism has a poor brand image, yes. The interesting question for me though, is why?"

Well, perhaps I am reading too much into it, but I suspect you are implying some sort of deliberate campaign on the part of those who would lose out were any of feminisms goals to be realised ?

This thread and others have real women telling you why, and you are still asking why ?