To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

Matilda,

Whilst I agree feminism should focus on women, I would argue that both sides are focusing on different things, and therefore with feminism focusing solely on women it's impossible to say that when feminists feel that there's nothing left to achieve then everything's equal, as it would be the same as men saying there's no need for feminism.

And with women being more repressed in the past, I don't think it should be that because women were more repressed in the past women now have more rights to say what is equal or in some ways and especially some feminists come across as punishing men today for sins of men of yesteryear that the men and boys today had no say or influence in as a lot werent born.

I think there's room for both advocates of both men and women's rights but instead of fighting their own fight I think many are too concentrated on derailing the other, by countering each issue with "well we suffer from...." "Just because of ... Doesn't mean ... Is representative of everybody"

"This thread and others have real women telling you why, and you are still asking why ?"

Because they aren't really saying why. It's all hints and nudges and rejecting the entire movement because a feminist was wrong or nasty or angry to them once. It's baffling!

I am old enough to remember when the name Women's Lib was successfully smeared out of existence- I bet everyone thought "bra burning" when you read that, didn't you?

The same thing is happening to feminism.

Haha Matilda whilst I agree on the majority of points and seem reasonable I would imagine most people's experiences and expectations of feminism aren't of people like yourself it's of more hard core feminists like political lesbians which personally I find tedious for example, and these people who are feminists but extreme that people don't want but hear most about, and then you have feminists like al Lena Dunham and Amy Schumer which seem to feel somewhat proud of their sexual pasts including their incestual sexual assaults and rapes that if they were perpetrated by a man, he would lose all credibility as figureheads but because they are women it seems to have been pushed aside or atleast they are feminists I hear most about when I don't actively look for that news

Matilda thanks for your posts.

They have given me a lot to think about.

Your shaving example hit the mark with me, I did go a long time without shaving my armpits and then I was so worried about being judged I shaved it all off. It was my choice to shave it, but I only chose to do it as I wanted to feel like I fit into society more. I was quite worried that when I was working and lifted my arms people might see how hairy my pits were and if it wasn't for how society judges women with hairy armpits I would never have shaved them off again.

The problem is, I've now thought about a lot of my choices in life and can clearly see how so many of them weren't as 'free choices' as I thought.

The following occurred to me after my last post, while I was fetching DD from school.

If I'm on the right track with my previous post, for "feminism" to become more widely accepted as a label, an organisation needs to be set up to promote it, but using a new name for it, to escape the current negative brand image. The brand image of "new feminism" can be controlled by the organisation, who can officially disown and ultimately expel anyone who makes pronouncements that damage the new brand name, whatever that might be.

Perhaps the organisation could be called the "Women's Equality Party."

Wait a moment...

(I know nothing about WEP, have not spent even 30 seconds reading their web site, but I'm assuming it was thinking along the same lines as me that led to their choice of name. In fact my brain is now remembering seeing someone on TV saying so, but it could be making that up.)

"feminists like al Lena Dunham and Amy Schumer which seem to feel somewhat proud of their sexual pasts including their incestual sexual assaults and rapes"

As said above, women are 50%+ of the world's population. Women are people and some people are arseholes.

I don't recognise either of those women as "feminist figureheads", though they may define themselves as feminists. If a feminist does something wrong, it doesn't mean all feminists are arseholes, any more than it means all atheists are arseholes because Dawkins is one.

Matilda,

just to make it clear, the idea of them doing it, and having a lesbian sexual experienc when they find only men sexually attractive i find tedious, in practice i don't really worry about it. I just don't see why you would actively do that ,when from my experience and from what i hear from others, those that see themselves as heterosexual would really not consider doing anything sexual with a person of the same gender. in a way i admire them for their dedication to what they feel will further their cause, i just don't see that it would. sorry i know i'm not explaining myself well, but hopefully you can gather what i mean through my difficulty regardless

and i think the Media highlights any figurehead of a well established or currently in the spotlight group, what i would say is i believe Dunham put about assaulting her little sister in her own biography/ book, and Schumer also revealed the information herself.

I can't be sure on David Bowie, but Ched Evans, i believe the majority of his supporters felt their were inconsistencies and waiting for the appeal to finish before making judgement, but i do think unless you actively keep up with a story developing over time its hard to get a whole picture, for example as somebody who enjoys sport, with a similar case recently, Adam Johnson when it first came out many people that i read (so just to be clear not myself) were saying she lied to him, and she was in an over 18's club so theres an expectation that they are 18, it's only after sentencing I, like many others who hadn't kept up with the story found out after he plead guilty to Grooming and sex with a minor or whatever the official charge is, she was closer to 14 than 16 at the time ( dispelling many's even though she wasn't 18 in the club she was almost legal, eurgh) and that he had contact with her before, and even looked up the legal age of consent, and then when cold hard facts came out he was turned upon pretty much fully, even though the majority condemned him anyway. With the Kesha ruling everybody is condemning that Dr. Luke and saying its disgraceful. none are seen as suitable figureheads.

but on Sexual offences i think thats one thing both sides of Feminism and those fighting for Mens rights actually agree, its just both think eachother get off likely for sexual offences! so if everyone could just put sex/ gender politics aside thats somewhere we could and really should make some progress

It would have been a breach of the law to reveal the identity of the complainant in the Ched Evans case even if the verdict was not guilty.

Seuss,

i'm aware of that and i'm just stating as somebody that doesn't actively seek out feminist news, these self professed feminists are making the news that gets to myself so to me they seem as figureheads perhaps more in America, although i'm English living in the UK most of my news sources has a focus on America.

my point is i don't find these kind of women as suitable to associate myself with a movement or some of the stuff they say, and they eventually become what people associate with

The internet has different views on what Amy Schumer did, I see:

www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/07/no-amy-schumer-did-not-give-a-speech-celebrating-how-she-raped-a-guy/

I don't have much time to look at this so no idea who is right.

"appeal to finish before making judgement"

Nope. They judged the victim hard and took illegal actions.

Two attempts to appeal were denied; the third has fairly recently been granted, several years down the line. His status remains guilty.

Donald Trump makes the news; I don't conclude all rich white American men are racist fools, though.

What an interesting and thought provoking thread and one dear to my heart. I would definitely identify as a feminist, as in I believe in equal rights and equal pay for men and women.
The trouble is many people, including lots of young people seem to think feminism is something other than it is and is almost become a dirty word. Lots of people think that "feminists" are bra burning, man hating zealots who wouldn't ever wear dresses, heels or make up, would never get married etc. If you have seen the "Millie Tant " cartoon in Viz you will know what I mean.
I've overhead some young women assure each other they are not feminists. If I think they have a sense of humour I ask "why do you say that? Do you think men should have more rights and better rights just because they have willies? You can be a feminine feminist as well - they're not mutually exclusive". Sometimes I get agreement, sometimes peals of giggles and sometimes blank faces! Oh well.

I think it may have been the playwright Caryl Churchill who did a study of feminism broken down into three main types:
-- Radical (wants a matriarchy to overthrow the patriarchy - this is the sort of feminism feared above! )

• Liberal (in fact most feminists' idea if feminism ie equality)
• Bourgeois (using feminine wiles to get your own way/get to the top - not really feminism at all in my book! )

Interestingly I got embroiled in a Facebook thread on feminism a while ago and was told that "my sort" of feminism was actually "egalitarianism". Perplexed, I looked up some definitions and some dictionaries do define feminism as "promotion of women's rights". I suppose the clue is in the "fem" bit. It does then sit a bit awkwardly with the notion of equal men's rights.
I'm not sure I could get used to calling myself am egalitarian though!

Btw I'm married (though kept my original name), have children (both names), work full time, earn more than husband, love pink and sparkles, love skirts /dresses/heels/make up/long hair etc. I don't think any of these things either admit or exclude me from the feminist cause ( and I'd have plenty to say to anyone who said otherwise! )

I was scrapbooking today with two friends (feminist scrapbooking obvs )

And both agreed that it was the stereotypes of feminists as bra burning, dungaree wearing harridens that they felt put women off

Note to self....REFRESH!!!!!

Were any bras ever burnt? Maybe once in the 1970s...

... So it's approx as old as the FWR meanies meme

"-- Radical (wants a matriarchy to overthrow the patriarchy - this is the sort of feminism feared above! )"

Radfems believe in root reform of society, not a matriarchy to overthrow patriarchy.

yes but when i hear other feminists saying about things i don't agree with, associated with people i don't want to associate with, and assuming these are the same people and things other people hear, and choose to follow, not everybody is going to just think that its only the extremists if its the extremists are the only thing they hear, especially when feminism is something intrinsic that isn't obvious unless someone states that they are indeed a feminist

so for me with Donald Trump i hear him and know he is a racist fool, but i know other rich white American men who aren't racist, but with feminism most of the information that reaches me is by extremists, and as i said i'm not too interested in seeking out feminist news, and i can't compare it to other feminists as i don't go round asking people if they are/ and their stances

Are there other social or political movements you apply that to, Wahhh?

Hillary Clinton identifies as a feminist and is in the news a lot more than Lena Durham.

A couple more things:
I think the best thing women can do for the feminist cause is not to rail against an imperfect world but just get in with it and show you can do what men do and just as well. I'm one of the highest revenue generators in my department at work, because I work my arse off even though I leave early to do nursery pick up. Employers can't argue with cold hard cash. I've been promoted and I'm paid well and valued because the team figures would be up shit Creek if I left.

I do think the so called equality laws are a bit back to front though. I'm a solicitor so I've given it a fair bit of thought. Employment law is geared towards special rights for women to be able to work part time, refuse night shifts etc because they are more likely to have to care for children. Wtf? This just seems more likely to force women into low paid pay time roles that they might not prefer! What about the rights of dads who want to work to for around their childcare? Surely the law ought to focus on smoothing the path for working PARENTS not just mothers.