To ask if you feel feminism doesn't include you?

[FlyingElbows]

I was brought up by a mother who, like so many others, found feminism in the late 70s / early 80s. She spent most of my life telling me that I could do anything but I was essentially too stupid to form my own thoughts and opinions and needed "feminists" to think for me. Throughout my adult life I have met women who proclaim to be "feminist" but hold what I have found to be questionable views about who "feminism" should be open to. So, do you feel feminism wants you or are you too stupid, too lacking in academic prowess, too working class, too blonde, too keen on glittery things, too married, too a sahm, too anything at all to be good enough? Just wondering because I have had enough of other women telling me what to think and I'm wondering if it's just me?

BertrandRussell
Do they actually reject transgender rights as a whole, or do they reject the "demands" of the vocal minority you mention?

It would seems to be the former.

Or is that perhaps a debate for another thread?

Yes and no. It's a much talked about subject and I think the way some feminists talk about it is possibly very offputting to others who might otherwise share common ground.

Great post, Matilda.

Here here Matilda.

Argh! Hear hear, of course!

I think of it a bit like Christianity as well....bear with me...in that there are lot of christian ideals that I agree with and i wholeheartedly support. But that doesn't make me a Christian, in order to be a Christian (I would say) one has to believe that Jesus was the son of God - and by extension that God exists etc etc.

To be a feminist I think you have to believe that women get a worse deal that men, and that women are unfairly treated compared to men. That women and girls are more in need of your help than boys and men. Am I wrong about that ?

For me, there is a very clear difference between something being a feminist choice or not, and a woman being a feminist or not.

I think this is interesting, in what other area could one continually make choices that are the contrary to the aims of ones stated belief system ?

I don't mean to sound like I'm having a go at you here Matilda but this is an example of what frustrates me (I'm not saying I have any answers). You are a feminist but yet you are not even prepared to stop shaving your armpits incase someone thinks you are smelly. It seems like feminists demand that certain things are given to women, but in reality we are just being nice and hoping that the men in charge will extend the franchise, we can't demand it since we can't make then give it to us. See people also asking for posters saying "please don't rape" etc, or like we can just educate male aggression and "masculinity" which we deem "toxic" away. The idea that men will just stop being mean to each other and women, if we teach them or ask them not to...we're talking about unstitching thousands of years of civilisation and ths structures that have evolved to contain and manage male aggression, and yet you wont even shave your armpits...sometimes, it all just seems a bit silly ?

I feel like " you don't have to have the same beliefs/ideals to still be a feminist" is just a way to get more people to call themselves a feminist but, isn't it counter productive?

Doesn't having a feminist can mean different things to all people mantra, when it comes to crunch time make things a bit messy? You get a group of feminists with this mantra and then when talking about issues you get those for/ against shaving body hair, and to some you can be one shaving body hair and to others you can't be a feminist without not shaving body hair. Leaving members of one category feeling marginalised before even getting onto a serious topic.

What's the point in saying "... People are feminist" under the all encompassing label if it comes to action time the number to actually agree with that specific issue is only 25/10/7% etc and would be there if these aims were already set out

There are feminists who have chosen to live in a very feminist way. They are lesbian separatists, they do not wish to be bound by what they regard as a male dominated society. So they remove themselves. But their beliefs - such as saying they do not believe women should serve men domestically or sexually, so they won't do that themselves - are the sort of thing that make a lot of people here feel uncomfortable.

Yes - I see what you are saying, good example... but no one takes them seriously anyway, which kind of suggests that if you do take things to extremes, then women aren't flocking to sign up....BUT...a separatist environment does sound like one that a lot of posters on various forums would prefer, so why don't they choose to live in one ?

Matilda I apologise if the tone of this makes it look as though you are speaking for and on behalf of "Feminism"...

Pick up that megaphone- you're doing a grand job!

Okay, I'm going to lower the tone and say it's all very well for lesbian separatists to opt out and live a man free existance, but it's easier for them - the rest of us need someone to shag. This naturally leads to some compromise in lifestyle.

You are going to have to explain what a political lesbian is MatildaBeetham. I fear you aren't going to get any work done today

Never heard of political lesbians before. What do they do about having babies? Presumably men are okay for that?

I don't know very many political lesbians who have children they didn't adopt.

But I would slightly quibble with matilda's definition. Some people believe sexuality is just as constructed as gender is - and that we only think it is innate because we're conditioned to think so. They would argue that you could work against your conditioning.

An easy example of this would be, that you might feel attracted to men partly because you'd always figured you would be, but then you'd become a political lesbian, give it a go, and find to your surprise you were actually just as happy with women.

We tend to assume sexuality must be innate, because it was such a big piece of the rhetoric of LGBT groups seeking to avoid people saying they'd made a choice to be gay. But it's still not clear, I think.