To be excited that David Cameron could be gone in 4 months

[feellikeahugefailure]

I'm assuming now that BJ will support the brexit campaign and if we vote to leave DC will have no choice but to resign and BJ would be the obvious replacement.

Also I do think SC came across really well on bake off, she did seem lovely. I wouldn't mind her being PM.

If Scotland doesn't want to be part of the UK and wants to be part of tge EU, good for them. I don't live there, they rightly do as they please.

My utter worst case scenario is leaving EU and ending up with GO or BJ as PM.

I can't see why anyone would want Boris for PM, lunacy.

Pretty much hate Cameron but don't find him as odious as Osbourne. It's not like there is any credible alternative to the Tories now so we will be stuck with a shower of shite. Plus the Scottish will want out so we will be up the creek without a paddle.

Nightmare.

It's not the fault of those voting leave, the fault for a GO/BJ PM would lie with those that didn't vote or voted Tory.

vertigonun don't the Tories who are campaigning to leave tell you something about the calibre of that decision? You vote for little Britain you get little Britain.

Or actually you get Little England as once we've split from Scotland etc we end up a precariously small country in a big allied world.

Plus we'll still be paying an estimated 85% of what we do now in a trade agreement and to get that agreement it's likely we'll have to agree free flow of EU migrants into UK. And by 2030 our GDP is expected to be at best 2% up but more likely 0.8% down if we leave.

I really don't get it. We don't win.

I am not scared, the villans are on the side of both stay and leave. We are a small country or large. I don't fear change.

I can't for the life of me see why this gets mentioned as an issue

It gets mentioned because as part of the EU we get a say in the standards. If we are outside the EU we don't get a say but we still have to comply if we want to sell to the EU.

if the EU was to legislate us into poverty, they'd be destroying a lucrative export market - which makes no sense at all

I hope you are right but I am not confident that either the UK or the EU will behave sensibly in the event of a vote to leave. Divorcing couples often act in ways that are not in their own self interest simply out of a desire to damage their ex-partner. One might like to think that divorcing countries would be different but I'm not convinced. Certainly when one think tank game played it using ex-diplomats the outcome was countries not behaving sensibly.

Also we have to consider the fact that Brexit will most likely lead to the break up of the U.K. as Scotland wants to remain for trade reasons

As an Englishman, I was in favour of Scottish independence (if they'd voted for it) - it's up to Scotland.

Certainly when one think tank game played it using ex-diplomats the outcome was countries not behaving sensibly.

So what happened? Did the Germans stop selling us BMWs?

If Scotland doesn't want to be part of the UK and wants to be part of tge EU, good for them. I don't live there, they rightly do as they please.
^This - why is everyone so scared of this?

Oil.

It gets mentioned because as part of the EU we get a say in the standards. If we are outside the EU we don't get a say but we still have to comply if we want to sell to the EU.

No, we get a voice amongst 28 with no veto. Outside we get.....no "voice" (whatever that is - some vague nebulous concept of contribution of ideas which no-one has to actually listen to or take account of if it doesn't suit them), still no veto and have to do pretty much the same - there's no great loss here.

Cornishdoll - Thanks for that link, from it - "the Belgians, backed by the French and others, want the EU council conclusions to say that the new settlement for Britain is the final, immutable deal.

So if British people reject it in the referendum, there would be no coming back to Brussels to sort us out a better deal, prior to a second referendum.

Sources say David Cameron will not object to this "deal is the deal" statement in the summit text.

It doesn't actually say whether that made it into the text in the end, or if it was just something that the Belgians, French and others wanted to put in.

Either way, it's impossible to tell if it would or wouldn't happen. There's a lot of brinkmanship on both sides, but the EU on the whole doesn't want the UK to leave (nor does it want to offer any real concessions). It's unknowable what would happen in the event of a no vote. You call it a myth, but it's no more or less an myth than any other possible outcome and the Belgians beating their chests about it now is just posturing.

don't the Tories who are campaigning to leave tell you something about the calibre of that decision? You vote for little Britain you get little Britain.
What about the Labour and other parties' No campaigners?

prh "It gets mentioned because as part of the EU we get a say in the standards. If we are outside the EU we don't get a say but we still have to comply if we want to sell to the EU."

and what difference does that make to me, the average Joe on the street? In a global economy, we all seem to fall down together anyway. I feel like a lot of the economic arguments are relevant if you are well off - but if you are an ordinary Jane whose competition for a retail job or secretarial job goes up 100x because you now have to compete with applicants from across the EU as well as UK ones, do you really stand to lose anything if we exit the EU?

I think there's a sharp divide here - some people really find the freedom for work etc useful, others don't give a stuff.

and in terms of the compliance, we must be selling goods to other non-EU countries and meeting their standards without worrying whether or not we have input.

and will economic losses be offset by what we won't have to pay into Brussels any more?

lorelei9 I think the opposite - it's the average Jane that would probably be worst off outside of Europe as many big business are saying they would leave to be based in cheaper European countries with easier trade agreements. Therefore there may well be many fewer jobs in the UK.

Plus it's very likely that in order to do an EU trade deal from outside we'd need to agree to let migrant workers from EU work here much as we do now.

So a double whammy of fewer jobs and same amount of competition.

Of course no-one knows what will happen as its such a leap in the dark. But it won't be well off people like Boris that suffer any negative consequences.

I am absolutely the last person to agree with Shiney Oily Man, but on Europe he is right. We are better in I would love him to spot being PM but not at the expense of rights, security and a stronger future for this country.

We will absolutely not have a strong future if we are out. We are not the grand old empire anymore. We need to get over ourselves on that point.

I didnt think there could be much worse than David Cameron but Boris Johnson??? Are you having a fucking laugh?? I think people will vote to stay though.

and what travail said - all of it.

I really don't see the benefit of leaving and i am worried that immigration will be the decision maker when it is probably a tiny issue compared to everything else.

Boris Johnson as PM is an awful thought. Just look at his lack of attention to detail whilst London Mayor.

Cornish - this is why the detail is so vital. if the free movement doesn't stop, then I don't know how many of us would go to the polling booth at all.

the answer to your point about jobs should be that competition will decrease, but no one seems to know how the hell it would work in reality.

My dad stopped voting years ago and shit like this makes me understand why. I did lecture him about men dying for the vote but I am starting to see his point that the powers that be are just going to do whatever crazy shit benefits them the most. And of course they want a high volume of low paid workers on tap, of all nationalities, so they can treat all of us like shite. Joy.

What about the suffering women endured to gain the vote?

What about it?

Vertigo, dad already knows about the women. The story of the battle for universal male suffrage seemed to have either fallen out of his head, or he was never taught about it.

Lauren15- I agree Samantha is just so lovely with the most wonderful personality. No airs or graces.