To be excited that David Cameron could be gone in 4 months

[feellikeahugefailure]

I'm assuming now that BJ will support the brexit campaign and if we vote to leave DC will have no choice but to resign and BJ would be the obvious replacement.

Also I do think SC came across really well on bake off, she did seem lovely. I wouldn't mind her being PM.

Chipstick - can I ask how you think our country will be better if we're not part of Europe?

Boris is being very tight lipped up to now anyway.. (i wouldnt trust him as far as i could throw him. )
I doubt DC will resign if its a No vote, but he may well go the way of Margaret Thatcher. 6 MPs have already shown their hands to being anti Europe and it will tear them apart I think. Its been rattling around for years. Just my opinion, but I feel the vote will be rigged anyway, too many people do not want us out as they rely too much on the EU gravy train. It will be interesting, but the whole debate will just bore people too and the waters will get very murky as time goes on. Hard to know what will happen!

Goves statement was fascinating today, read in full. All the EU directives strewn upon ministers desks everyday. Thousands of them.none can be changed or reversed. I'm old enough to remember my mum voting for a common market. That's all it was then, and now we can't breath without Europe telling us how. When did we the British public sign up for this? How did it come to this?

Gove's statement is fascinating and I too am baffled it came to this - well, it's called not listening to the public.

but one thing did baffle me in his statement - he said we can't set our own rates of VAT? Or is that something he foresees in future if we don't leave?

OP, still interested to know why you're so keen on BoJo.

lorelei speak up and be proud : you're as entitled to your opinions as much as everyone else you know, after all - and your reasons might help convince someone else

actually I'm not 100% sure. I will be watching the next few months carefully.

there's an extent to which politicians are just going to screw us over no matter what happens.

I'm 99% sure though.....

There is a minimum EU rate of VAT of 15% but other than that we are allowed to set it.

We gain a lot more from being in the EU than out and if we leave we will still be likely to be in the EEA - so subject to most of the rules but without a say in them. I am pretty sure we will vote to stay in and I hope we do.

Deo, that's one scenario that concerns me - that ministers will fuck it up and we end up answerable in the same way and nothing really changes. It is amazing how politicians will screw over Jane Public if there's something in it for them.

It will change if we have the regulations imposed but instead of now have no say in the decision making process - it will be worse.

I cannot see us choosing not to be in the free trade area and if we want to be in that then we will need to make goods which follow EU standards. To vote to leave means we are not involved in deciding those standards. So it would be a shot in own foot. Alternatively we could choose to impoverish ourselves and not sell to our closest and biggest trading partner.

Deo, genuine question. Do you think the average Jane is going to be affected by that? (I know we have a British Standards Insititute and not currently sure how it sits within the EU).

There is a minimum EU rate of VAT of 15% but other than that we are allowed to set it

The minimum rate is actually 5%. We cannot zero rate any goods that are not currently zero rated. If we remove zero rating from any items they can never be zero rated again. This is why the government cannot stop charging VAT on sanitary items (the so-called "tampon tax").

I know we have a British Standards Instititute and not currently sure how it sits within the EU

The BSI sets British standards for a wide range of products, services and processes. It is obliged to adopt and publish any EU standard and withdraw any British standard that conflicts with an EU standard. It also adopts and publishes international standards (set by ISO). However, unlike EU standards, the BSI has the option not to adopt ISO standards.

If we leave the EU the BSI will no longer be compelled to adopt EU standards. However, we will not be able to export to the EU any goods that do not comply with EU standards.

thanks for that prh. " However, we will not be able to export to the EU any goods that do not comply with EU standards"

I can't for the life of me see why this gets mentioned as an issue. If we want to export those goods, we will make them to EU standards in order to keep exporting, surely?

Oh I don't lknow if BJ will be any better, it will be more amusing though. He's undoubtedly one of the brightest people in uk politics.

The myth that that OUT campaigners are propagating is that if we vote to exit there will be a second negotiation and referendum.

This is a highly unlikely scenario - the EU had declared categorically this will not happen and it seems to have gone off the table as an option altogether.

Don't be fooled into thinking we can 'protest vote'. You are being conned

Cornish, why would OUT propagate a myth that might put people off voting OUT?

and who would use this as a protest vote?! wouldn't that go "I'd like to stay in the EU with some changes so I'll vote to leave the EU"???

The myth that that OUT campaigners are propagating is that if we vote to exit there will be a second negotiation and referendum.

I'm not an *out campaigner" but I think this is a likely outcome of a vote to leave.

As for "the EU" saying this won't happen - who said so, and when? Even if true, people and organisations can change their minds depending on outcomes.

To vote to leave means we are not involved in deciding those standards.

I can't fault the logic - but in reality, as one voice in 28 member states, how much say do we have now?

The export issue for many posters will be a question fo whetehr they eat or not, whether tax credits stay, whether they pay 40% tax instead of 20% - if the nation cannot afford to keep itself because we cannot export goods to EU markets then yes this will have a massive impact on your personal economic situation.

(ph, is right that we can have under 15% VAT for certain categories but the general minimum VAT rate under EU law is 15%. I think it very unlikely we sould reduce UK VAT rates if we left the EU however as the state gets so much money from VAT).

wason, I do a lot of work on EU directives and have for 30 years. The UK is usually one of the key nations putting in put into what the directives will say but I agree we don't have a veto on most of them. We will do better in than out. If we are out eg we could repeal equality legislation and disability protection legislation and employers could if they wished discriminate against the disabled or women and that might mean they could make more goods and more cheaply. We could repeal laws which say if you sell a business staff wages must not be reduced too. As a free market person I can see the advantage to some of that.

If we are out eg we could repeal equality legislation and disability protection legislation
Well, the government could do that - but would many people actually vote for it? We'd be out of line with many Non-EU nations if we did that - it doesn't make any sense.

if the nation cannot afford to keep itself because we cannot export goods to EU markets
There is NO WAY we will not be able to afford to export to EU markets - don't forget we buy a huge amount from the EU - if the EU was to legislate us into poverty, they'd be destroying a lucrative export market - which makes no sense at all.

I ask one question..who would replace him? That scares me hence why im on the better the devil you know side!

lorelei9 um this would encourage people to vote out as they think this would then trigger a better, renegotiated deal. A protest vote as it were.

I ask one question..who would replace him? That scares me hence why im on the better the devil you know side!

Eh? So you'll vote to stay in the EU because of the risk of a Non-David Cameron PM? I hope I'm misunderstanding that.

wasonthelist www.itv.com/news/2016-02-18/eu-heads-to-say-that-if-britain-votes-to-leave-there-will-be-no-second-negotiation-we-will-be-out-of-eu/

Also we have to consider the fact that Brexit will most likely lead to the break up of the U.K. as Scotland wants to remain for trade reasons