To think volunteers prepared to work for free can be very damaging

[feellikeahugefailure]

Just that really. If there are large numbers of people prepared to work for free for certain jobs it really suppresses the wages in that industry and people get used to having (armature) labour for free so wont pay for it.

Anyone else finding this?

madwoman I cannot speak for others but I am not criticising volunteers of the nature you speak of. I am criticising the system that means that these types of volunteers are needed. These services should be paid for via taxation. Wealth in the UK needs to redistributed and I find it strange that, often, people who are willing to volunteer/do charity work/give to charity are unwilling to contribute to the services they volunteer for by paying more taxation.

I read this with amusement. I work in charity retail and this is EXACTLY what happens. The charity I work for has implemented an overtime/casual worker ban as they try and get any additional labour needs met by volunteers. So if someone is off sick, rather than offering those hours to a part time paid member of staff they will ask for volunteer help first. Yet the paid staff need to be available just in case they cant find enough volunteers. Which sucks really.

Eleven59 - I totally disagree so many services are provided so much more efficiently than taxation.

Look at the Rnli , mountain rescue and lots more. You could never run these services through taxation.

Every day I deal with councils wasting money because it's not their money.

I dunno eleven, that never really seems to come into it - most of the volunteers I have worked with recognise that services cost money and it has to come from somewhere. Mostly the criticism is directed at what local or national government is choosing to spend the available funds on, rather than any lack of desire to pay more tax. They also work full time (as do I) and have no say in increases to taxation. It's rather out of our hands.

Sadly, the folk losing out on services being cut are the folk that have very little chance of working anyway, ergo not really affected by taxation rates...

You are probably right in that those dedicating fifteen hours a week to voluntarily upholding the welfare system alongside their ft jobs are reluctant to have any more of their full time wage taxed with no real potential of it being put back into social and welfare provision though...

The subject of higher taxes has never really come up. Too busy doing and not enough time to pontificate, I suppose.

Every day I deal with councils wasting money because it's not their money.

Then surely this is another issue. It doesn't mean that essential services should be provided by charities or volunteers. And I count libraries as an essential service. For some, its the only access to a variety of books. Books and the ability to read is a key to education.

Look at the Rnli , mountain rescue and lots more. You could never run these services through taxation.

Why could these services not be provided via public money?

Yep madwomanbackintheattic I agree but I do think its a sad state of affairs for a 'civilised' world.

So let them be run by charities or volunteers. Make the school libraries available to joe public.

Because you add government economics to the Rnli or mountain rescue and you end up with a 100xs the cost to run.

So let them be run by charities or volunteers Why would this be a good idea? Why should essential services be run by charities or volunteers?

Make the school libraries available to joe public. Yes but school libraries generally cater for school age children. Not preschool children or adults for whom books are also important. If you want to widen their remit then its going to require some funding which should not come from volunteers or charity.

Because you add government economics to the Rnli or mountain rescue and you end up with a 100xs the cost to run.

So should any services be publicly run? Should they all be privatised?

Its not only publicly run organisations that are guilty of inefficiencies but like I said that's another issue.

My 2ps worth. Volunteering is fantastic and I wouldn't employ anyone who hadn't done some sort of outside volunteering.

Hope you make that very keen to prospective employees gingerdad. I'd want to avoid working for anyone who took that attitude. I couldn't trust their attitude to my labour.

No charities can be as well.

Me I'd much prefer a smaller state. We are too dependent on the government.

Jizzy - I have plenty of applicants to choose from. And have happily employed a number of people who where struggling to get jobs elsewhere because of their volunteering.

There are countries with smaller state intervention.

Me? I'd prefer a system like Norway or Sweden's with greater intervention where essential services are funded by a decent and fair tax system, where there is low crime, and where people are content.

That's nice gingerdad, but isn't what I asked.

I haven't RTFT but I'm a volunteer First Responder and struggle with this very issue.

We're supposed to help our community and be on hand to respond to life-threatening emergencies.

In reality we're used as staffing resource and help them reach their targets of being on scene at a red emergency within 8 minutes. Meanwhile the government gets away with cutting funds to the service and the service copes with not being able to afford to recruit more staff.

Re:libraries. Many early years providers are reliant on libraries to support their work and have temped in Playgroups where a trip to the library is a weekly visit. I have worked in schools where library vans visit every week. To say that libraries are not necessary is utter nonsense. It's not just for extra curriculum reading but supports the work done by those providing our childrens education.

And the very idea that all schools have a library is really quite amusing as it's just not true.

I think libraries are valuable and was appalled when the cuts first came, however I have gradually changes my mind as the cuts have become deeper elsewhere. In addition the library cuts have affected the hours when most people are at work, therefor the very people who pay the taxes can't use them. That is not to say I think that tax payers should be the only only ones to benefit but taxpayers do fund all these types of things, nhs, roads and welfare which is one of biggest potions of government spending

Gingerdad, if you are a council bean counter you need to change your mindset. At the moment you can see the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

But children are using libraries at school. That is part of where are taxation should be going. Also libraries are for many the only place where they can use the internet and apply for jobs, pay bills, study etc. By denying everyone libraries you are denying most the opportunity to do the very basic and necessary. By closing libraries you create a rift in society. Sorry if people think that sounds dramatic but i really do believe it. We all grew up with libraries. Amd the generation before us who lived through war. They are the one place where everyone is equal and can access what they need. And now we don't need them because bankers have got this country in a financial mess? Sorry I just don't buy it.

Libraries are used less and less by schools unless they are geographically close due to the issue of time, hassle of visits and risk assessments, granted in a some part of uk this might be the uk but in most it is not. I am not convinced by tha job application, pay bill and study argument, the majority of people have computer access. The number who use the library computer for job applications is very small and I think you can use job centre facilities, bills can be paid in other ways.

But rural schools use library buses.

We all grew up with libraries. Amd the generation before us who lived through war. They are the one place where everyone is equal and can access what they need. And now we don't need them because bankers have got this country in a financial mess? Sorry I just don't buy it

1850 Wikipedia suggest was first parliamentary act on getting libraries set up -after 20 years of working towards it - so two world wars and the great depression we've had public libraries in UK.

Suddenly I'm hearing so many people say we can't afford them any more- it doesn't make sense to me.

More and more government services are increasingly on-line, to save money, - one of the big places people without internet access can access these is libraries. You'd think access needs to increase not decrease.

Well the experience at our (now community run) library is exactly the opposite Ponty. Lots of older people, job seekers and other vulnerable people with no internet access at home - we've just added 4 new computers to keep up with demand (the job centre in town does provide internet access to job seekers but that's a £3.60 bus ride away, and is no use if you are retired/seeking asylum/long term sick etc etc). And yes bills etc can be paid in other ways and things can be bought in other ways but the point about internet bills/internet purchasing is that it is often significantly cheaper than the alternatives, so especially useful for those in a low income.