To think volunteers prepared to work for free can be very damaging

[feellikeahugefailure]

Just that really. If there are large numbers of people prepared to work for free for certain jobs it really suppresses the wages in that industry and people get used to having (armature) labour for free so wont pay for it.

Anyone else finding this?

My one charity is animal related, the other isn't.

I was shocked recently to find our local hospital has hundreds of volunteers who do jobs like cleaning, changing beds and feeding patients. The chap doing it explained to me that it was to free up the nurses to spend more time on patient care. The nurses were still running about like crazy and had no time for anything so I assume actually the hospital uses the volunteers to justify lower numbers of nurses and paid cleaning staff or orderlies.
I'd never even imagined you'd have volunteers doing that kind of work before.

Hmm, it's tricky, and easy to confuse work placements, internships and volunteering, and there is a difference.

I work for one of the UKs largest volunteering charities, and from what I can ascertain, it exists first and foremost to provide volunteering opportunites, with the benefits of that volunteering being a very welcome bonus. Because volunteering in itself is hugely beneficial to the volunteer (health benefits, mental wellbeing) and to the community, in addition to what the volunteer is actually doing.

We are always very careful to have clear boundaries between what is a volunteers role, and what needs to be paid staffs role, if the two work side by side. In those situations, volunteers add value rather than save money. Then there are other situations that are being kept viable and open by the work of volunteers (such as the museums mentioned above).

And then of course, there's organisations/government/whatever that completely fuck it up by confusing work placements and volunteering and muddy the waters

I think that you should have made it clear in your OP, What type of Voluntary Work, that you mean, or the thread could go round in circles.

I've only ever done Voluntary Work which relies on Volunteers, to exsist, or provide a better service, Welfare Rights, for example, the service would still exsist without Volunteers, but they'd see less people.

Most of the people on my Access Course had to do VW to get into their BAs, being in a 'benefit trap', meant that they couldn't have taken paid work.

I agree. Wages in my field are low because there are plenty of people willing to do it for free.

The NCVO defines volunteering as
"any activity that involves spending time, unpaid, doing something that aims to benefit the environment or someone (individuals or groups) other than, or in addition to, close relatives. Central to this definition is the fact that volunteering must be a choice freely made by each individual."

This clearly distances actual volunteering from unpaid internships or work-for-benefits schemes. Internships and work for free schemes generally benefit corporate businesses whilst volunteers should have a community or environmental focus and are usually, but by no means always, for not for profit organisations or charities.

Real volunteer roles cannot replace roles which were previously paid, although some voluntary organisations get round this by restructuring.

A genuine volunteer should have the same employment rights as a paid staff member with the exception of a notice period: a voluntary position can be terminated with a day's notice. I am not sure about unpaid positions but would imagine they are similar. Corporations view them as a great way of running a light, lean workface whereas charities etc view volunteers as essential to achieving their stated aims.

I have volunteered with a number of what I believe to be worthwhile causes over the years, knowing that without volunteers an activity simply would not happen. I've done tree planting, I run a large community event, listened to reluctant readers in primary schools and even volunteered on Cub Camps, but I would never, ever give my time for free to a profit making corporation or business. If they want to gain from my knowledge, they should pay for it.

I agree with PP about the Museum/Heritage sector, my first degree is in a Heritage and Conservation and it is next to impossible to get a paid position in this area, even as a guide. Many archaeological digs are run with volunteers.

I have found that a number of people take it up as a hobby later in life and even though their intentions come from a good place, I have seen some quite significant damage done to artifacts from a lack of knowledge and supervision (cleaning damage the big one). Its a Catch 22 though as a lot of historic houses could not open without volunteers as there is so little funding and they are expensive to run and maintain.

YANBU. To give another side, this is an increasing problem in Arts related fields like publishing, where unpaid or very low paid internships are a hugely important part of securing employment. Of course the only people who can afford to take these kinds of roles are usually young, white and middle class. They then get the jobs. Then the publishing industry screams and hand wrings about the lack of diversity. Yeah, funny that all those poor, black kids you say you want couldn't afford to come and work for nothing

The arts as a profession are becoming increasingly difficult to work in unless you have other sources of income. It's ever been thus but the issues with unpaid internships are making the diversity issue even worse, although the arts are generally seen as desirable and people are keen to work for nothing if they think it will help them get paid work - only there's less and less paid work to speak of!

pausing I agree with you, many volunteer organizations do amazing work which simply wouldn't get funded by government anyway, such as the bereavement counselling or Cat's Protection, which are just not considered core services.

As others have said, though, there has been a creeping encroachment on previously paid employment roles through the notion of volunteering, which has probably damaged the volunteer sector- if you have volunteers feeding patients in hospital or managing museums in their spare time. I have heard of council services making people redundant and then putting volunteers in their place- would people willingly volunteer if they knew that mass redundancy had just occurred.

Funnily enough, one of my favourite films 'The Shawshank Redemption' has some scenes in about this issue, when the prison inmates form a chain-gang and start undercutting the previously paid for contracts for building/manual labour. People do love to get something for free. This has to be weighed against the benefit for those working though, as in prison inmates, although this is not the best example as they were not volunteering freely as the above definition states.

Agree that "volunteering" is a bit of an elastic term. I have done large amounts of volunteering, and one of its appeals is that it means that I have been in control; not being a paid piper means that no one can call the tune. One organisation I helped out at started getting a bit arsey - the boss started drawing up strict rotas including weekends among other "improvements". I just walked. But conversely I do understand how difficult it is to manage volunteers - you cannot take advantage of goodwill.

No shit Sherlock.

It's amazing how many people will volunteer to get up and sing play an instrument for free in all sorts of venues. Wtf should they pay the pro's when amateurs will do it for nothing.
Then there are the semi pro's who have a day job where they earn a wage, then bloody cheek get paid somebody else's wage, hence making them redundant. I'm sure they wouldn't like a musician to wander in from the street and get employed by their employer, hence making them redundant.
Or better still doing it for half the price because they don't need another wage.

Are you talking about auxiliary nurses Boleh ? Because I think they've always been a thing.

I went to school down the road from a hospital and 6th formers who were interested in medicine, nursing or midwifery often did auxiliary nursing in free time. I'm fairly sure they weren't paid positions. This was late 90s and early 00s.

I volunteer for a charity if we didnt volunteer we would close there would be no service and people would be isolated social services who are already boggedd down would be worse I wish what I do was paid but dont discount the service volunteers do.

yanbu.....along with the amount of unpaid overtime going on these days!

It's so competitive trying to get a decent job. I have been looking at a bit of a career change and it's been suggested I do colunteer work in the new field, as the last several people taken on were previously volunteering. (I can't fit volunteering in around work though).

And where I currently work, as well as other local organisations, we seem to be more and more dependent on volunteers and there is a big drive to recruit more. It's almost as though they want the volunteers doing the work and the paid staff doing the bureacratic stuff around them.

And yes, there's been plenty if times when say a member of staff is off the management have said "can't a volunteer cover"? rather than pay overtime/agency.

Unpaid internships are a major bugbear of mine. I did a lot of research and wrote a paper on this in conjunction with a Government Department a couple of years ago.

In brief, you need to be very careful offering unpaid internships... unless they are:
a) undertaking the placement as part of a recognised course of higher education, or
b) it is a genuine work shadowing placement where they don't actually do anything but observe, or
c) they are a bona fide volunteer for a charity or not for profit organisation,

then they are likely to be deemed a worker and should be paid at least minimum wage. Even if they are just doing basic tasks like mailouts or photocopying.

Within the media sector a number of young people have successfully taken companies to the the tribunal in recent years.

Not only are they legally risky they are ethically dubious as well. As others have said, they prevent a lot of people from getting valid experience in the workplace because many people simply cannot afford to do an unpaid internship. They effectively exclude people from certain socioeconomic groups from getting into certain sectors. Fashion and media are the worst offenders in my experience.

The work for nothing schemes isnt the same as volunteeering thats for the benefit of companies goverment statistic or individuals to get a foot of the career ladder that isnt benefitting a wider community imo

there has been a creeping encroachment on previously paid employment roles through the notion of volunteering

Libraries are another example. Councils have a legal obligation to provide a comprehensive service, but it's not defined, so they get away with threatening libraries with closure if volunteers don't step in to run the services. Volunteers can add value at libraries eg by helping housebound customers or helping with the summer reading challenge, but the actual work of running the library should be done by qualified librarians and para-staff.

NovelNovelNovel I couldn't agree more. You posted as I was typing my essay above!

The Arts Council have tried to take steps to improve things in the sector - you can't post unpaid internships on its Arts Jobs website and it is a condition of funding that arts organisations act within the law (not sure how strictly this is enforced, though...) but it's endemic. Agree that publishing is also a serial offender.

I volunteer for a charity which would struggle to function without unpaid volunteers. However, I also have a part time paid job with a public sector organisation. Several functions of the job I do are being advertised as suitable for volunteers. The need for cost savings to be made means that if functions are taken on by volunteers, however well-meaning they are, there will be a reduction in paid posts.

A while ago a police force near me advertised for volunteer receptionists to work at their custody suite. I couldn’t help but feel this crossed the line between what is and isn’t acceptable to advertise as a voluntary role. I can only agree that

there has been a creeping encroachment on previously paid employment roles through the notion of volunteering

No, I think the thread title is bang on.

Because there's so much deliberate muddying of terms like "volunteering" and "work experience".

So I think it's right to take the starting point as any situation where people are "working for free".

And then ask questions like, "who is benefitting?", "is anyone being harmed or disadvantaged?" This will tease out which sort of situation it is, and whether one wants to enable it.

MrsConnelly, blardy hell at the police custody one!

I have had periods where retraining etc when volunteering in both my previous and prospective fields was a very welcome way of maintaining skills and feeling reasonably good about myself at times of uncertainty and change, but I have seen some organisations take the absolute proverbial.

I was told as a qualified health professional of 12 years standing with a degree and a postgrad that I would need to volunteer in a recognised charity 'name' for at least six months to even be asked to interview if a position came up. I was also told that voluntary experience in the sector but not with nationally funded organisations (eg grassroots disability/mh community start ups and not-for-profits) were seen as suspect and 'wouldn't count'.

These 'unwritten rules' were conveyed to me by individuals who were, frankly, dinosaurs in terms of their understanding of the needs of those the sector serve, all of whom were on eye wateringly high salaries that had survived several pay cuts when more recently qualified staff were being paid at very low rates, There was also more than a whiff of corruption about some of it, with staff from one high profile charity bleating on about how they had no money for vital services while throwing good money after bad into sexy sounding training initiatives in the Carribbean that they had to fly to oversee regularly, when services on the ground were being decimated. (I wish I was joking).

This is an interesting discussion. I agree that 'legitimate' volunteering is when it is an added extra that society should not feel obliged to provide. So cats protection was a good example, or walking dogs at your local rescue centre. I volunteer for Duke of Edinburgh expeditions at my local High School - great to enable young people to have the wilderness experience, but not depriving anyone of a job opportunity.

And sorry if it isn't clear my HCP experience was within this sector, I wasn't looking for unrelated work or work in a new or different sector.

Nothing wrong with working for free in a job that in reality would not attract a salary (and those workers are not always amature)

Something very wrong with working for free in a job that would attract a salary or allows the justifications to remove essential paid roles from others