To think volunteers prepared to work for free can be very damaging

[feellikeahugefailure]

Just that really. If there are large numbers of people prepared to work for free for certain jobs it really suppresses the wages in that industry and people get used to having (armature) labour for free so wont pay for it.

Anyone else finding this?

I used to work in a machine shop; we often had students on unpaid 2-week "work experience" placement from the local college. It was a struggle to find the students significant work, and they needed a lot of supervision.

What I remember mostly is that those young men had difficulty with the rigor of heavy industry... working on your machine for 2 hours, followed by a 10 minute break, followed by another 2 hours of machining.

In addition, in college the students were doing "unique" work - cutting a slot, milling a surface, threading a hole. We wanted them to drill and cut threads in a couple of dozen holes, and that was just before the morning break.

Let's face it, a lot of work is boring and repetitive.

PausingFlatly

I think the position was front of house dealing with visitors (legal representatives/relatives) not the actual people in custody. However, I understand the police force concerned did get some negative responses about it…

I volunteer in a charity who relies on volunteers and another larger national charity with many volunteers but a large HQ. I don't think the latter would employ me but think I'm doing a great job, I wouldn't get through the hoops of the application process and it's very competitive in the charity sector. If I leave they will spread different tasks across the staff so they can do less other stuff so I hope I add value rather than take work away. It's great for building confidence while giving flexibility.

I may do a paid internship to get into a new industry. I would do it unpaid because I'm in a fortunate position and have the challenge of being a parent who has been home for a few years and little relevant experience. My sister did unpaid work to get into her industry too and it paid off, she had to move back with family. There's no way I could've done unpaid work in London as a recent grad so I've seen both sides. I left my degree subject completely as I saw it as for wealthy people only, even a masters was out of the question. But sadly I would consider unpaid work because it's so competitive and I need to do something different to stand out from the 21 yr olds with no responsibilities.

Then there are the semi pro's who have a day job where they earn a wage, then bloody cheek get paid somebody else's wage, hence making them redundant. I'm sure they wouldn't like a musician to wander in from the street and get employed by their employer, hence making them redundant.

Not a new thing.

My Granddad who made it to his 90s and been dead over a decade used to do a full days work - see his wife and kids briefly then head out on a bike to meet up with his band then work all evening playing - getting a bit of cash.

Being a musician wasn't possible full time - as the money and security weren't there so he did the best he could.

DH has a skilled hobby that people love - but even the top people in the field struggle to make a living out of it and often have to have sidelines. People don't register the hours/days of time in the design part or the hours of practise in making and they tend to assume the materials are cheap - which they can be but can also very expensive - they think they are just paying for 20-40 minutes or at most a day filming those few minutes rather than paying for the actual time involved.

It's not the skilled people's fault it's the lack of willingness to pay for the expertise.

These days I expect if people couldn't get musicians at price they wanted they'd stick pre-recorded stuff on - at least my Granddad had an advantage in that dancing with live bands was the done thing.

It's not just "poor black" students who are elbowed out of certain sectors - it's anyone now who does not have a base in (for the most part) London. In fact the poor black student with a parental base in London would be at an advantage over the white student domiciled in Melksham. I posted on another thread that the train fare from anywhere outside zone 6 is too punitive for someone to contemplate working for nothing. Daily return fare from where we live is £40.50 (even off-peak is £35). Someone simply cannot work for nothing if forking out over £200 a week in fares alone. If your parental home is in Fulham or Barking, however, then you are in a position to consider an unpaid internship.

I volunteer a lot so that when I try to find a job after uni I'll be able to show that I've developed some skills over the past 3 years and gained some experience. I've looked for work but barring one xmas temp job, nothing has fitted around my uni timetable. As a volunteer, places are more understanding and I've spent around 70% of my time at uni volunteering alongside studying. It's not in profit organisations though, I've volunteered in a school, nursery and refuge.

I think provided it's for the right reasons and in a non profit organisation, volunteering can be really good. I'm applying for jobs now and I think my volunteering will really help me, because I've got more experience. No one should have to work for nothing but I don't think volunteering while looking for a job is a bad thing - after all, employers want experience and one way to get experience is to volunteer.

Good post, madein1995, and good to hear from a real student ! I agree that volunteering is a win-win when neither wants to make a commitment to time or money.

I suppose as others have said the problem arises is when the job was traditionally a paying post. And [hollow laugh] at "apprentice bar staff". I don't suppose they even get any tips.

You can't restrict it to not for profit providers though. All of the volunteers I have ever worked with would not have been able to do the 'work' they did, to their very great detriment.

That is part of the backlash I fear.

Locally we have a coffee shop, a plant nursery (the owner of that, frankly needs a knighthood, I may put his name forward if I can work out how), 2 gardening one man bands, a pub, a restaurant and a couple of stables. All offer volunteer placements for people who have dropped under the radar for some reason. All of them are businesses, need to make money and yet, especially the gardeners, do take a financial hit to take volunteers (both gardeners would probably get more work done without the extra help) and offer help and hope to lost of people.

It would be a criminal waste to lose those opportunities.

Interesting post re class TAs and increase in volunteers partly doing role.
With school budgets the way they are think this will increase....

Completely agree with the op.

Sadly I have direct experience of this in both my lines of work; libraries and counselling.

After 3 years of counselling training I was expected to fight it out for a volunteer counsellor post in order to get enough hours for accreditation. Charities know that there is a constant stream of recruits and so never have to pay for professionals.

Despite misgivings I worked voluntarily for three years until I decided that it was unethical ( our referrals came from the NHS) and that by working for free I was undermining my profession.

In my experience this general quid pro quo understanding that you work for free in exchange for experience which then translates into paid employment very very rarely materialised.

In the library service the use of volunteers instead of ( not in addition to ) professional staff means that we are losing our bibliographic expertise.

Working for free just further increases the opportunity and wealth gap between rich and poor.

Volunteering for a charity is one things and very laudable.

Having unpaid volunteers, interns or whatever doing a lot of the work in a fashionable industry, say, is very unfair because it means only those who are independently wealthy will ever get work in that industry.

I once did a work placement to gain work experience and learn at the same time (this was during my last term at uni) at a big product design company. I was supposed to learn by shadowing my team and try out some ideas, as well as get guidance for my final uni project.
What actually happened was that I worked a 50+ hour week for £200 a month. Yes, I did learn a great deal, but i was more or less a full member of the team without any of the benefits they were getting.
Sadly it's one of those industries where you have to have at least a year's work experience in order to get an entry level job, "ideally two or three", and the only way to gain that experience is by working for free! I definitely felt/feel that those companies are abusing the system and the students who 'volunteer' for them.
Now, on the other hand, I do voluntary work which is purely for the benefit of the community (I run a toddler group and do postnatal support for the nct); and this is completely different. Certainly not devaluing anyone's work or taking people's jobs!

In real life though there aren't vast numbers of people prepared to work for free - most people prepared to are those that want to either progress their careers or doing a placement, uni, etc.

I was recently put off doing a volunteering role because my response that "I like to help my local community" wasn't the right answer to "what do you hope to get out of volunteering?".

Good.

It warms my heart to see the chattering muddle classes suffer what the working classes have been besieged by for for 20 years.

If someone is willing to work for less than you, whether they be immigrants or interns, then that is clearly the market value for your labour.

What is sauce for the goose...

Dey terk err jerbs!

Float did they tell you what they thought the right answer should be?

timekeeping

Unfortunately, you are totally wrong I'm afraid.
Musicians do earn a living, there are so many problems in the industry, but the professionals used to make a fair whack before amateurs and semi pro's became involved.
I'm talking serious money, but unfortunately unless you are manufactured these days it's getting much harder.
With respect your relation was a semi pro with a day job, hardly comparable to those who have to put bread on the table as it is their day job.

Would you walk into a dentists completely unqualified and volunteer your services or offer at half the fees. It's laughable isn't it, but with music and other art forms it has become the norm. People don't even think of paying their dues, they feel entitled because "It's something I've always wanted to do"

A real soap box of mine. But not your fault.

There are a lot of companies in highly sought after industries (like the one mrs mugoo cites earlier) that use unpaid interns as free labour and are doing it largely knowing that people are defrauding the benefits system (and I'm not for a minute suggesting mrs mugoo is).

If someone is working for you full time and you're only paying expenses then either they a) have independent means/bank of mum and dad or b) they're claiming benefits.

So either you're only giving work experience to people from naice middle class families or you're ripping off the state. Either way, it's not a terribly laudable way to run a business.

It is a problem though for so many industries.
I want to work at a college, support or teaching entry level. I am qualified and have a PgCE.
To help to prepare the vulnerable for independent living, but there have been so many cuts.
Our local college have cut most of these roles and friends have been made redundant.
Volunteering would be a way in and could result in a job when management realise they need the support workers. I am more than prepared to volunteer because I know there aren't the funds.
I couldn't do it though out of principle, one friend had worked there for 15 years and had been support for me (at a higher level, of course) I couldn't do it to those made redundant.
Another friend used to work in the library, now the volunteers have her previously paid job. I wouldn't mind but she only did a few hours here and there and wasn't paid a huge wage.

swiggityswoogity your post comes across as a bit mean spirited but I know exactly what you are saying. A certain type of middle class pro-immigration group will swear that anyone protesting about immigrants working for less is simply racist. The working classes have been hit hard by cheap labour flooding the market and the middle classes have been unaffected or have even benefited from the cheap labour.

The volunteer question is wider than this though but you have a point

I have always volunteered by the way. For jobs that ohterwise wouldn't get done.

People who were on forced work experience schemes through the JC were often treated like crap at the JC and then treated like crap or "less than" at the placement because of others being in fear of their jobs or the fact that they also see unemployed ppl as lesser.

You can see the same thing happening now with social housing tenants. The attitude seems to be "so what if you have workmen in your home destroying your things or causing a flood Its free so why are you complaining"

Yy to this being a problem in the heritage sector. Lots of people willing to work for free so no jobs available to those with the skills. A good friend of mine volunteers full time at the moment but can't get a job in the same sector - he's obviously willing to do it for free, so why pay him?

It is a tricky issue; I work in libraries and it saddens me to see librarians replaced by volunteers. It's better than seeing libraries close though. And it's not the fault of the volunteers. A lot of the heritage sector would struggle without volunteers too.

I volunteer lots, and enjoy it. I do it because I have the time and I want to help the community.

Righto, I'll take back all my campaigning against workfare destroying minimum wage jobs at Tesco and the like, swiggityswoggity. Since it's an issue that hurts muddle class people only...

I am a highly trained museum professional. My training was government funded.

I now cannot get a job doing what I was trained for, because museums can just hire volunteers.

Unfortunately I am not in the privileged position of being able to work for free. So I can't even get "experience".

Volunteers can be very valuable in addition to a paid workforce. They should not be a replacement for one.

I think what swoggity was trying to say is that no one gave a fuck in the early days when it was just the working classes who were made to do workfare under the guise of Training For Work or New Labours New Deal etc (workfare is a lot older than social media) but as soon as it began to affect the middle classes under the guise of internships there was outrage.

Its a good example of the "first they came for me" adage.